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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Friday, December 01, 2023

In 1950, while sitting down to lunch with colleagues at the Los Alamos Laboratory, famed physicist and nuclear scientist Enrico Fermi asked his famous question: "Where is everybody?"

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"In short, Fermi was addressing the all-important question that has plagued human minds since they first realized planet Earth was merely a speck in an infinite universe.

Given the size and age of the universe and the way the ingredients for life are seemingly everywhere in abundance, why haven't we found any evidence of intelligent life beyond Earth?"

.

Of course, these days intelligent life on Earth is debatable, lol

Interesting article from Phys.org delves into the extended question of, "Where's All the Robot?".

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2023-11-30 05:30 PM | Reply

s

#2 | Posted by Corky at 2023-11-30 05:30 PM | Reply

I'm more puzzled by why have we not seen fragments of tech from advanced civilizations?

If something the size of a Dyson Sphere were to explode it would send evidence of advanced Tech across the Galaxy.

Or is Humanity all we've got on this plane of existence and it's up to us to be nicer to each other?

#3 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-30 05:37 PM | Reply

Mainly because we don't see anything "across the universe".

#4 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-11-30 07:24 PM | Reply

An asteroid or a meteor with something as simple as a bolt or a screw in it would be proof of alien civilizations but we have found nothing of the sort.

#5 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-30 09:48 PM | Reply

#5 I think we would detect telecommunications from any civilization close enough for a bolt to reach earth.

#6 | Posted by bored at 2023-11-30 10:35 PM | Reply

the civilization could be long dead.

space "garbage" would be around for much longer.

#7 | Posted by Tor at 2023-11-30 10:48 PM | Reply

We may not know what to look for, what we're looking at, or be unable to detect (possibly incapable of detecting) it" even if we encounter "it."

#8 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2023-12-01 06:32 AM | Reply

We may have recently found it.

www.cbsnews.com

#9 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-01 01:41 PM | Reply

This topic has fascinated me for ages. The thoughts on where is everyone that Fermi asked, leads to some people doing thought experiments or reasoning behind that.

One idea says, we are making a serious mistake and one we can't bring back home by the expansion of radio, television, and other signals going out into space at a ever increasing sphere. Their thought on this is that any species able to survive and build a technological society, would see any other civilization as competition for resources, that they might eventually need. Habitable planets such as ours aren't that common. That any technological civilization would eliminate such a place before it became a confrontation issue for them.

Another one says, we are back water and backwards when it comes to civilization. That our animal instincts for survival make us unfitted for contact since we'd be a danger to any other civilization that was caught without their tech to protect them.

Space is huge, far beyond our ability to grasp just how huge, stretching out into infinity. Travel times between even just galaxies, is restricted when it comes to the top speed of light. For us, we'd age out and die before reaching a satellite galaxy in our own Milky Way. The distances are just to vast and our tech is not up to the task. The only way to work around that would be self-aware, self-repairing robots that essentially didn't age. We are not to that point yet.

There's also been the thought that there might be some sort of barrier that prevents most civilizations from becoming too far advanced before they die out; called the Great Filter. That something prevents most from advancing into a future. Perhaps nuclear war, perhaps resource depletion, perhaps their own global warming unconquered. Who knows as this is all speculation.

#10 | Posted by BBQ at 2023-12-01 08:20 PM | Reply

We may have recently found it.

#9 | Posted by Tor
_____________________

I had read this article a few days ago. Those 6 planets are all sub-Neptune sized planets, with short orbits, indicating they are not in the 'goldilock zone' that allows for water to be present. They all orbit closer in to their star.

#11 | Posted by BBQ at 2023-12-01 08:23 PM | Reply

In a sufficiently advanced civilization they would possibly have the ability to create worlds in which to live.

At a sufficient distance it would be hard to tell the difference between them and natural planets unless they moved with say too much synchronicity.

#12 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-01 08:28 PM | Reply

... Why Don't We See Robotic Civilizations Across the Universe ...

How can we be sure we have not yet seen those robots?

Why do we presume that the technical progress of other civilizations is at the same or similar level to our own progress?

Maybe, just maybe, there are advanced robots from other civilizations already among us, but they are so "good" that we think they are human?


In other words, why do we presume (likely, incorrectly) that life on Earth is the most intelligent life in this great, wild universe of ours?

And don't even get me started about the multi-verse or parallel universe theories.

The Universe: Parallel Universes
www.history.com

... Some of the world's leading physicists believe they have found startling new evidence showing the existence of universes other than our own.

One possibility is that the universe is so vast that an exact replica of our Solar System, our planet and ourselves exists many times over. These Doppelganger Universes exist within our own Universe; in what scientist now call "The Multiverse." Today, trailblazing experiments by state of the art particle colliders are looking for evidence of higher dimensions and Parallel Universes.

If proof is found, it will change our lives, our minds, our planet, our science and our universe. ...



#13 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-02 03:44 AM | Reply

Somebody has to be the first...

#14 | Posted by Hughmass at 2023-12-02 06:08 AM | Reply

Space is huge, far beyond our ability to grasp just how huge, stretching out into infinity. Travel times between even just galaxies, is restricted when it comes to the top speed of light. For us, we'd age out and die before reaching a satellite galaxy in our own Milky Way. The distances are just to vast and our tech is not up to the task.

Funny how this is mentioned, but when I suggest shooting out nuclear waste out into space to get it off our planet, people get mad.

Either there is life "out there" to get our waste or it isnt. If it is out there, having them bring back our waste to us would at least answer one question. Otherwise, we get rid of the garbage in space where there is nothing.

#15 | Posted by boaz at 2023-12-02 08:55 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Funny how this is mentioned, but when I suggest shooting out nuclear waste out into space to get it off our planet, people get mad.

Either there is life "out there" to get our waste or it isnt. If it is out there, having them bring back our waste to us would at least answer one question. Otherwise, we get rid of the garbage in space where there is nothing.

#15 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Since it has been explained to you before the problem is obviously your willful ignorance

The problem isn't having nuclear waste floating through the expanse of the universe but the real danger of the rocket exploding as it leaves our atmosphere thus poisoning the whole planet see Elon's multiple failed rockets.

Some people are just plain dumb

#16 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-02 09:47 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

#15 | Posted by boaz

This is what passes for "intelligent thought" in conservative world.

LOL!!!

#17 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-12-02 09:50 AM | Reply

#16 | Posted by truthhurts

That's just one of many possible consequences of that idiotic notion.

The man is literally dumb as a sack of hair.

#18 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-12-02 10:00 AM | Reply

Either there is life "out there" to get our waste or it isnt. If it is out there, having them bring back our waste to us would at least answer one question.
#15 | POSTED BY BOAZ

Especially if the question is "Are we a species of litterbugs?"

Today I Learned if you leave a ---- on Boaz's front steps, he will bring it back to you.
I'm not sure if he learned that in the Army.
Hey Boaz are you sure you weren't in the Navy?

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-02 10:48 AM | Reply

"Either there is life "out there" to get our waste or it isnt."

A conservative's idea of personal responsibility: dump your garbage where somebody else is responsible for cleaning it up.

Yer a "real man", Boaz.

#20 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-12-02 11:06 AM | Reply

Space is vast. But so is time. A civilization that is a million years old or even a billion years old could things we can't possibly imagine. Like a caveman trying to imagine landing a man on the moon when he doesn't even know what the moon is.

#21 | Posted by donnerboy at 2023-12-02 11:41 AM | Reply

A conservative's idea of personal responsibility: dump your garbage where somebody else is responsible for cleaning it up.

Well, that's the key.

The article is saying there is no one else out there. So what does it matter? I say pick a dead planet and dump everything there.

#22 | Posted by boaz at 2023-12-02 01:01 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

I say pick a dead planet and dump everything there.

Why not the Sun?

#23 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-02 01:03 PM | Reply

#22 | Posted by boaz

Knows the unknowable and doubles down on stupid.

Great American.

#24 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-12-02 01:14 PM | Reply

Running some numbers, it would take the SLS Cargo about 1,900 launches to get rid of the nuclear waste currently sitting in the US, and about 43 launches/year to keep up after that.

At $1.25 Billion per launch, that's around $3 Trillion for initial cleanup and $65 Billion/year in future maintenance.

#25 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-02 01:22 PM | Reply

#25 | Posted by REDIAL

Damned librul math...

#26 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-12-02 01:46 PM | Reply

"Since it has been explained to you before the problem is obviously your willful ignorance"

Willful ignorance is a requirement for being in the Republican/maga fixed news cult.

#27 | Posted by donnerboy at 2023-12-02 02:07 PM | Reply

Not to mention the costs for the cleanup from the inevitable rocket explosions in the atmosphere

#28 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-02 02:26 PM | Reply

Read "Voyage of the Spaceship Beagle". And if that is too much just watch Wall-E. And then just for fun, watch "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai- Across the Universe"

#29 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2023-12-02 02:33 PM | Reply

Correction Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension

#30 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2023-12-02 02:33 PM | Reply

If you want even more fun try the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy!

But don't forget your towel.

I felt very sorry for the poor whale. It wasn't his fault! But I guess it was just his Karma.

#31 | Posted by donnerboy at 2023-12-02 02:44 PM | Reply

Is it behind the door marks be where the leopard or behind the door marked beware the leper?

#32 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-02 02:49 PM | Reply

I say pick a dead planet and dump everything there.
#22 | POSTED BY BOAZ

That's what we're doing already.
Get it? Happy Extinction!

#33 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-02 02:58 PM | Reply

That's what we're doing already.
Get it? Happy Extinction!

#33 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

As long as there is a profit in it we don't really care if we crap in someone else's rice bowl.

Apparently.

#34 | Posted by donnerboy at 2023-12-02 03:07 PM | Reply

Shooting nuclear waste into the atmosphere sounds great in theory. However in practice it's a stupid idea. Cost prohibited as well as dangerous to the nth degree. That rocket could fail leaving that nuclear waste to contaminated the area around where the rocket explodes. It's a very dumb idea.

#36 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2023-12-02 11:18 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

However in practice it's a stupid idea. Cost prohibited as well as dangerous to the nth degree.

It's probably something each state that uses nuclear power should deal with as they see fit.

#37 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-02 11:48 PM | Reply

Why not the Sun?

Nah, we need the sun. And this planet.

But not a moon around Jupiter or a passing asteroid.

Running some numbers, it would take the SLS Cargo about 1,900 launches to get rid of the nuclear waste currently sitting in the US, and about 43 launches/year to keep up after that.

At $1.25 Billion per launch, that's around $3 Trillion for initial cleanup and $65 Billion/year in future maintenance.

Ok, then we better get started.

I think it's worth it for us to take care of the only livable planet in this universe.

#38 | Posted by boaz at 2023-12-02 11:49 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Nah, we need the sun.

You don't seriously think we have the ability to do any damage to the sun, do you?

#39 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-02 11:54 PM | Reply

#39,

You would be surprised.

#40 | Posted by boaz at 2023-12-02 11:57 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

You would be surprised.

Yes, I certainly would.

#41 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-03 12:05 AM | Reply

There are no livable planets within commuting distance. It only makes sense if we get all the garbage and nuclear waste off this planet. Storing it here is stupid.

#42 | Posted by boaz at 2023-12-03 12:08 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

As a geologist by academic training, its been my experience that two of the most misunderstood concepts by most people are the concepts of 'deep time' (time on a cosmological scale), and 'galactic scale'.

Galactic Scale:

Imagine for instance the following symbology:

' ( * ).

where ' = Voyager I
* = the Sun
() = the heliopause
and . = Voyager II

(For those who dont know, Voyager I and Voyager II are the furthest man-made objects from the Earth/Sun)

Now think in your head (without looking it up on your phone or on Google) given the above diagram, how far away would Proxima Centauri (the nearest star to the sun) be?

Look at the diagram again. Stare at it again and think. Is it on the other side of your bedroom? The furthest outside wall to your house? Maybe a block or two away?

How far away would Proxima Centauri be?

You'd be wrong with any of the above guesses.

Now set your phone on your bed, and leave it there, get in your car and drive across town. You'd have to drive 8 miles from the little * on your phone and then place a ( . ) on the nearest sidewalk, and that period would represent Proxima Centauri, the nearest star to earth.

Much the same, our radio waves have had a little over 100 years traveling through the vacuum of space at the speed of light. So there is a bubble roughly 100 or so light years across and expanding, that represents the furthest our transmissions have traveled since the birth of radio transmissions on earth. But the Milky Way galaxy is conservatively estimated to be 100,000 light years across. So you can see the problem. If the sum of our radio trasmissions were the size of a single basketball, the Milky Way would be the entire Boston Garden (go Celtics!), or probably even larger.

So why would you have expected your signal to have reached anybody of consequence yet?

And time greatly complicates even those miniscule odds.

Deep Time: the universe is at least 13.8 billion years old.

The largest problem most Ufo-ologists have is they don't understand 'deep time'. They assume that everybody is alive at the same time in the Milky Way or the Universe, when clearly the opposite rings true. From earth's own geologic past we know that 99.9% of all the life to ever live on earth, has already gone extinct (and the way we are going, we are likely not too far from it ourselves).

So why wouldn't we apply those same odds to the rest of the Milky Way, and indeed the Universe?

If 99% of all life to have ever have lived in the Universe is already extinct, then the Universe is not so much a large zoo, as it is a large cemetary...

If this sort of speculation interests you, one of the best books I've ever read on the topic, was a book written, oh, 20 or so years ago, called 'Rare Earth', by Ward & Brownlee (I believe). They did one of the deepest dives I've ever seen into examining the Drake Equation and the possibilities for intelligent life, but with a more modern understanding of biology, cosmology, and geology. Great book...

#43 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-12-03 12:39 AM | Reply

I've always thought it was pretty arrogant of us humans to believe we can even imagine what "life" on other planets looks like, whether it has a physical form, or is even discernible to our relatively limited senses. Why are we convinced that water, or even air is necessary to sustain "Life"? Considering that there are living things on Earth that can survive ridiculous extremes of temperature, toxicity and time, it's not a stretch that some form of "life" (but not as we know it) can survive almost anywhere.

#44 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2023-12-03 01:34 AM | Reply

We are seeing them. Reports are common.

#45 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2023-12-03 08:13 AM | Reply | Funny: 2

True, we are seeing more of 'something' helium rat.

The question is what? Probes, spy satellites, our own black op satellites and devices? Eighty five to ninety percent of all of these sightings generally have more mundane explanations. A full ten percent, or so, do not.

Just because we are seeing flying things we have no explanation for, certainly doesn't conclude they are extra-solar in origin.

Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation, all things considered, tends to be the correct one. So spy satellite/military device of earthly origin, or an
E.T. craft from halfway across the galaxy? I think this would rule out at least 50% of the remaining 10% of unknowns. Now we are left with 5% truly unexplained.

I once saw a brilliant youtube video of a scientist who took a detailed look at some of that naval fighter pilot video of the tic tac craft zipping along below it, and he was able to show how it was likely a 'forced perspective error', due to the plane's high speed, the angle the craft was above the object, and the movement of the waters below the object that likely made it seem the tic tac like object look like it was going several times faster than it actually was.

Unfortunately, I've not been able to find that video again on Youtube, though I've looked several times.

Is other life out there?. Almost certainly. But 99% of E.T. life will be non-intelligent (microbes to animals).

There could be intelligent life out there, I have little doubt also. But why in the hell would they want to come here? I can only think of a few plausible possibilities that make any logical sense.

#46 | Posted by earthmuse at 2023-12-03 09:17 AM | Reply

"You would be surprised."

The notion is unequivocally absurd.

#47 | Posted by Angrydad at 2023-12-03 09:19 AM | Reply

This could be the answer...

Do we live in a giant void that could solve the puzzle of the universe's expansion?

42K views 1 day ago#CMB #Pantheon #Centaurus
...more

NASASpaceNews
177K

m.youtube.com

#48 | Posted by Corky at 2023-12-03 12:33 PM | Reply

Maybe among the few planets that support life intelligent life is even more rare and only exists on those few planets that have a moon like ours. And before you think that this doesn't make any sense consider the life forms you see at low tide.

#49 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-03 07:34 PM | Reply

Butlerian Jihad.

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-03 07:43 PM | Reply

@#29 ... And if that is too much just watch Wall-E...

A fun flick, and I typically do not like movies.

But that one was fun to watch.

#51 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 07:49 PM | Reply

OK, I'll repeat part of my #13 comment...

Why do we presume that the technical progress of other civilizations is at the same or similar level to our own progress?

Maybe, just maybe, there are advanced robots from other civilizations already among us, but they are so "good" that we think they are human?

In other words, why do we presume (likely, incorrectly) that life on Earth is the most intelligent life in this great, wild, unknown universe of ours?

... and ask once again...

Why do we seem to presume that we are the most intelligent creatures in the universe?

Is it for the same reason that we seem to label ourselves as the most intelligent creatures on this planets, using criteria that puts us humans at the top?


#52 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 07:53 PM | Reply

I don't see other life forms on Earth using technology Beyond ant fishing.

#53 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-03 08:31 PM | Reply

@#53 .. I don't see other life forms on Earth using technology ...

So... their technology may be far more progressed than ours?

Again, why do we seem to assume we are the most intelligent?

When I look at an ant hill, I wonder that those ants are thinking? Do they rate IQ based upon their knowledge or the knowledge of humans?


And don't get me started on cockroaches....

#54 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 08:48 PM | Reply

I am operating under the assumption that technology which can seen from Earth is more advanced than what we have.

Don't think biplanes think Dyson spheres.

#55 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-03 08:55 PM | Reply

We'll know the aliens are more advanced when all their nuclear waste lands here.

#56 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-03 09:10 PM | Reply

Republicans will want a Space Wall to keep the aliens from immigranting.

#57 | Posted by Corky at 2023-12-03 09:19 PM | Reply

why do we seem to assume we are the most intelligent?

It says so in the Bible.

#58 | Posted by horstngraben at 2023-12-03 09:22 PM | Reply

@#56 ... We'll know the aliens are more advanced when all their nuclear waste lands here. ...

Nah.

Why would they want to dump their nuclear waste here?

Why do you assume that they need to dump nuclear waste anywhere, or that they have nuclear waste at all?

I mean, really, why?

#59 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 09:33 PM | Reply

Kentucky Headhunters - It's Chitlin Time
www.youtube.com

#60 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 09:36 PM | Reply

Mork from Ork was the best alien.

Also was in the bible... Matthew, Mork, Luke, and John.

#61 | Posted by Corky at 2023-12-03 09:41 PM | Reply

Mork from Ork was the best alien.

Na. Marvin the Martian.

#62 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-03 09:44 PM | Reply

Nanu-nanu.

#63 | Posted by Corky at 2023-12-03 09:46 PM | Reply

I mean, really, why?

That was a callback to #38. You missed the hilarity last night.

#64 | Posted by REDIAL at 2023-12-03 09:48 PM | Reply


Why are we convinced that water, or even air is necessary to sustain "Life"? Considering that there are living things on Earth that can survive ridiculous extremes of temperature, toxicity and time, it's not a stretch that some form of "life" (but not as we know it) can survive almost anywhere.

#44 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

I recommend the following book, Hail Mary. I think they made a movie or are in the process.

But interesting ...
www.amazon.com

#65 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-03 09:49 PM | Reply

Actually Tom Baker...

m.youtube.com

#66 | Posted by Corky at 2023-12-03 09:53 PM | Reply

@#64

OK, that context explains it.

thx for the follow-up.

#67 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 09:58 PM | Reply

@#64 ... You missed the hilarity last night. ...

And, yeah. I was, I'll say, otherwise involved.

#68 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 10:00 PM | Reply

@#66

Dr. Who? Pop culture that seems to have an unusual focus in London?

Really?

That's two minutes of my life I'll never have again. (and one reason why I don't usually click on undescribed youtube links. But I made an exception because, well, you usually post reasonable stuff. I may have to change that view...


#69 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 10:17 PM | Reply

A solar system with planets that operate too much like clockwork could very well be a solar system with a series of artificial planets.

#70 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-03 10:19 PM | Reply

@#70 ... A solar system with planets ...

Just looking at this as "a solar system" is limiting.

Where is our solar system in the Milky Way galaxy?

Here's an map...

"We are here"
qph.cf2.quoracdn.net

OK, now take a step back. That galaxy illustrated is but one of many (billions, trillions?) galaxies in our known universe.

And don't even get me started about a possible multi-verse....


There are more galaxies in the Universe than even Carl Sagan ever imagined
bigthink.com

OK, each one of those galaxies may, or may not, contain a solar system similar to ours.

So, I will continue with my question on this thread....

Why do we presume we are the most intelligent creatures in this universe?




#71 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 10:43 PM | Reply

Time Lord - Alien.

Dalek - Robot.

It's my thread
And I'll post what
I want to
Post what I want to
You would post, too
If it happened to you!

( apologies to It's My Party )

#72 | Posted by Corky at 2023-12-03 10:44 PM | Reply

I already made clear that not all of us assume that. I've also made clear that sufficiently Advanced alien life be capable of creating artificial multiplanetary synchronization.

#73 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-03 10:45 PM | Reply

@#71

Oops, forgot to tag it, that bigthink.com article was from July 2022.


#74 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 10:49 PM | Reply

@#73 ... I already made clear that not all of us assume that. ...

Your comment was buried in others.

What is the "that" of which you speak?

thx.

#75 | Posted by LampLighter at 2023-12-03 11:11 PM | Reply

LAMPLIGHTER

You might enjoy this 3D animation of our solar system throughout a year. What I saw was unexpected:

fb.watch

#76 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2023-12-04 01:47 AM | Reply

Not all of us assume that other planets life forms are a lesser intelligence than us.

#77 | Posted by Tor at 2023-12-04 12:33 PM | Reply

Comments are closed for this entry.

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