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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Monday, December 04, 2023

The United States has given so-called bunker buster' bombs and an array of other munitions to Israel for its war on Gaza, according to a report by The Wall Street Journal.

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That should help free the hostages.

That's the plan still right?

Hostages?

Not genocide?

#1 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-03 12:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

And yet, we'll act all shocked when someone attacks the US in the future.

Is it arrogance or stupidity that leads us to foreign policies of violence and death without an expectation of backlash?

#2 | Posted by jpw at 2023-12-03 01:25 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

We are arrogant personified, Always have been. Always will be too.

#3 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2023-12-03 01:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Bunker busters? In an urban area?

They're Pigs. Murdering pigs.

#4 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2023-12-04 12:15 AM | Reply

US sends bunker buster' bombs to Israel for war on Gaza

US actions are out of sync with their rhetoric i.e. Israel should be mindful of civilian casualties yet they send Israel bunker busters?

#5 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2023-12-04 06:45 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Blood on our hands.

#6 | Posted by fresno500 at 2023-12-04 10:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

"Bunker busters? In an urban area?"

The BLU-109 is a great weapon to reduce collateral damage. It will penetrate a three-story building from the roof down and explode in such a way that the building simply falls into the hole.

I've seen it happen, although I suspect Israel wants these to go after some of the hard and deeply buried targets HAMAS has created in Israel.

#7 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-12-04 10:42 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

Seems very profitable for the MIC.

#8 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2023-12-04 01:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Gaza and the West Bank are apartheid prison colonies, and of course there will be rebellions, think Sittng Bull and Crazy Horse against Custer, think the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
Hitler had the position that if you kill one of his germans, he would line up 10 city civilians and shoot them in reprisal. It is clear that Netanyahu is doing the exact same thing. The Palestinians killed 1400 Israeli, he has killed over 14000 Palestinians. And that is not an antisemitic statement, it is an anti apartheid statement.

#9 | Posted by Hughmass at 2023-12-05 07:08 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#9 If you believe in indigenous rights, Israel has been the Jewish homeland for 4,500 years. The Palestinians didn't exist before 1948, they where just Trans-Jordanian squatters and colonizers.

#10 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2023-12-05 07:51 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

Gaza and the West Bank are apartheid prison colonies

#9 | POSTED BY HUGHMASS AT 2023-12-05 07:08 AM | FLAG:

Somebody should talk to Egypt and Jordan about letting them out.

#11 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-05 08:05 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Somebody should talk to Egypt and Jordan about letting them out. #11 | Posted by sitzkrieg
If only Muslims had
a few square miles to call home where the Palestinians could take refuge.

I guess the Palestinians have no choice but to massacre civilians and cry like the babies they purposefully slaughter as they send their young off to die in terrorist attacks in perpetuity for the 0.01% of land where 30% of the world's Jews live.

#12 | Posted by censored at 2023-12-05 12:41 PM | Reply

If only Muslims had a few square miles to call home where the Palestinians could take refuge.
#12 | POSTED BY CENSORED

They do. It's called Palestine. Why should they be forced to leave...again?

It's cute how you just ignore the brutal apartheid of the last 60 years though.

#14 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-12-05 12:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Gaza and the West Bank are apartheid prison colonies
#9 | POSTED BY HUGHMASS AT 2023-12-05 07:08 AM | FLAG:
Somebody should talk to Egypt and Jordan about letting them out.
#11 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Yes, because Egypt and Jordan have TONS of money to support millions of refugees. And the Palestinians should DEFINTIELY be forced to leave their homeland because Israel wants to be an apartheid state.

Idiot.

#15 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-12-05 12:52 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

They do. It's called Palestine. Why should they be forced to leave...again? It's cute how you just ignore the brutal apartheid of the last 60 years though. #14 | Posted by Sycophant

Yeah, the Palestinians had land that they believed belonged to them. Then they lost it, as often happens with land. Wonder who they took the land from. This area has a human history of millennia with the inhabitants believing that it belongs to only them.

Apartheid? Can't imagine why the Jews wouldn't want to live in an nation controlled by people who wish them dead. Meanwhile, the Jews have been expelled from pretty much every Muslim nation, but not a peep about their right of return or compensation there.

#16 | Posted by censored at 2023-12-05 01:00 PM | Reply

#9 If you believe in indigenous rights, Israel has been the Jewish homeland for 4,500 years. The Palestinians didn't exist before 1948, they where just Trans-Jordanian squatters and colonizers.

#10 | POSTED BY HELIUMRAT

Wow! That's new to me!

There was an Israel before 1948? And Israel is 4,800 years old?!

And Palestinians didn't exist before 1948? Amazing.

Jewish people lived in the area side by side with Palestinians for a long time. Palestinians didn't just magically appear in 1948. They are literally descendants of the same people. And BOTH have been there for thousands of years.

Palestinians and Israelis are LITERALLY related by blood and separated by religion.

#17 | Posted by Sycophant at 2023-12-05 01:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"I guess the Palestinians have no choice but to massacre civilians and cry like the babies they purposefully slaughter as they send their young off to die in terrorist attacks in perpetuity for the 0.01% of land where 30% of the world's Jews live."

Technically, the Brits created a "Muslim" homeland at the same time they create a Jewish homeland.

It's called Pakistan.

That said, it's important to note that not all Palestinians are Muslims. And even those who are aren't always ISIS wannabes.

One of my closest friends in college was a Christian Palestinian from Bethlehem.

I think that Muslim Palestinians like to use their religion/political affiliation to gain favor for the cause of a creating an Islamic state where Israel now exists. If it were simply a "Palestinian" thing, I'm not sure the Emirs and Imams would pay nearly as much attention.

#18 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-12-05 03:47 PM | Reply

Technically, the Brits created a "Muslim" homeland at the same time they create a Jewish homeland.
It's called Pakistan.

Not really.
Brits didn't say Palestinian Muslims are welcome in Pakistan.
Israel is a home to every Jew. Even the ones convicted of capital crimes in the United States.

#19 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-05 03:53 PM | Reply

Yes, because Egypt and Jordan

#15 | POSTED BY SYCOPHANT AT 2023-12-05 12:52 PM | FLAG:

You petulant child lol. Egypt and Jordan are jailers, holding the cell door closed. Egypt controls the Rafah crossing with US supplied military power.

but I'm just posting it for the irony, because every time Palestinians were let into Egypt or Jordan in mass, it resulted in attempted uprisings and expulsion by the same militants that fuel Hamas.

#20 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-05 04:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Kashoggi didn't get chopped up in some isolated incident. He was a propagandist on the wrong side of the hegemony. It's all connected.

#21 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-05 04:03 PM | Reply

"Brits didn't say Palestinian Muslims are welcome in Pakistan."

Why would the Brits say that?

They created a Muslim Homeland. Wouldn't it be up to the Muslim Homeland to determine who could be admitted and who wasn't?

Like those who might have been convicted of capital crimes in the United States?

#22 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-12-05 04:03 PM | Reply

So then you're saying Brits didn't really create a Muslim homeland after all.

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-05 04:06 PM | Reply

#20

Good point sir. Syria leveled the city of Hama when the Syrian version of HAMAS got froggy.

But where do we go now, as Syria is kindasorta a supporter of HAMAS?

Maybe...Hama should be the new Palestinian state or homeland or whatever?

#24 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-12-05 04:10 PM | Reply

Israel's neighbors, most of them, have never really wanted a peaceful Palestinian state.

That would take away the stick they love to poke Israel with.

#25 | Posted by Corky at 2023-12-05 04:14 PM | Reply

"So then you're saying Brits didn't really create a Muslim homeland after all."

They did. But whether or not that state was as inclusive as the Jewish homeland...I can't say.

#26 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-12-05 04:15 PM | Reply

A religious homeland that doesn't allow it's own religion... isn't really a religious homeland.

Think about that until it makes sense.

#27 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-05 04:56 PM | Reply

But where do we go now

#24 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER AT 2023-12-05 04:10 PM | FLAG:

Nowhere. The IDF is going to occupy Gaza until the political will to do it is gone, and the cycle will repeat itself again.

#28 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-05 05:55 PM | Reply

Nowhere. The IDF is going to occupy Gaza until the political will to do it is gone, and the cycle will repeat itself again.
#28 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

I believe Israel will annex Gaza, what it gave up on 2005 is now Israel again.

Land for peace doesn't work with the religion of peace.

#29 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-05 06:04 PM | Reply

Think about that until it makes sense.
#27 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

You might want to think about #26 until it makes sense, then think about your response.

#30 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-05 06:05 PM | Reply

Taking their "land for peace doesn't work with the religion of peace."

Or anyone else for that matter.

Crimea got taken, and then more of Ukraine got taken. That's how it goes when you don't fight back.

See: Tienanmen Square.

#31 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-05 06:18 PM | Reply

Taking their "land for peace doesn't work with the religion of peace."
#31 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Before 2005, how was it "their" land EVER? There has NEVER been a Palestinian state EVER in all of HISTORY. Jordan made sure of it.

You make these statements but have no facts to support them.

If land for peace doesn't work learn to lose gracefully.

#32 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-05 06:37 PM | Reply

See: Tienanmen Square.
#31 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

There was no "religion of peace" in Tienanmen Square.

#33 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-05 06:38 PM | Reply

Does a people have a right to self determination?

#34 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-05 06:41 PM | Reply

Palestinians didn't just magically appear in 1948
Some of them did. The rest 'magically appeared' (they walked across an unguarded border) in the early 20th century when they migrated from Egypt and Syria to get work for the British, they were never given citizenship of the mythical country of "Palestine". You can generally tell where a "Palestinian" migrated from by their last name. El Masry (Al-Masri) is one of the most common surnames in Gaza, it literally means "the Egyptian". Hamdan (from Hama) is also very common, those people are from Syria.
"Palestine" isn't Arabic, it was taken from the word Philistine. The Romans called it that to piss off the Jews who were living there long before they arrived and attempted to eradicate.

There was an Israel before 1948?
There was a place where Jews lived before 1948, yes, before 1917, WW1, Balfour and Islam. Jerusalem, always Jerusalem. What difference does it make what it was called at any point in history?
India was once called Bharat. Does that mean there 'was no India' before Herodotus? Call it India or Bharat or Hindustan or whatever you like, it's the same peoples, religion, language and culture.

Brits created a "Muslim" homeland
Two, actually. Jordan was given to the Muslims plus 90% of Ottoman "Palestine". But that wasn't good enough for them, they want all the land and they were willing to kill all the Jews if necessary. Having failed three times in war and refused all attempts at negotiation the Arabs have given up their land claims. Jordan gave up the West Bank, Egypt doesn't want anything to do with Gaza, Syria and Lebanon are failed States that couldn't secure Golan if they wanted to. The only people still fighting this pointless conquest for Jewish land are Persians, Turks and "Palestinians".

apartheid prison colonies
I'll keep asking until one of the Hamas supporters can answer this very simple question. Then they can pass it along to their hijacking/suicide bombing pals in Gaza and the "apartheid" will be over within 3 years, guaranteed.

What is the only fool-proof, never-failed, works-every-time solution to breaking an apartheid State?

#35 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 12:12 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 2


Does a people have a right to self determination?
#34 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

No. Governments give rights, not god.

#36 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-06 12:30 AM | Reply

"What is the only fool-proof, never-failed, works-every-time solution to breaking an apartheid State?":

You need a better money line. Nobody knows what you're angling at.

I can't even name an apartheid state other than South Africa and it fell due to a variety of circumstances. So your "works every time" thing doesn't make any sense to me. For it to fall you need right-wingers like Reagan and Thatcher to support it? That's your thing?

It obviously makes sense to you. But can you make it make sense to us? So far you haven't.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 01:24 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

If a government "gives" a right, it's a privilege,not a right.

Rights are asserted or they mean nothing.

The Palestinians are asserting theirs.

Israel is pushing back.

It's called a war of independence. Like the American Revolution,or the struggle against apartheid South Africa.

The Israeli's are the Bad Guys here.

Murdering,Thieving,Ethno-Supremacist, PIGS.

They will Lose this by Overreaching.

The world will be sickened by their actions.

Their Impunity is coming to an End.

#38 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2023-12-06 01:32 AM | Reply

I can't even name an apartheid state other than South Africa
The ANC should be enough. Did they go full-jihad? Did they kidnap Afrikaner children? They killed what, maybe 1500 people over 40 years? Many of those were black collaborators. They blew up empty buildings and infrastructure, industrial and agricultural sabotage. They made the oppression economically unsustainable. They were much more clever than Hamas and knew they could never win in a straight up gun fight. They baited their oppressors into firing on protestors. They made the whites fill up their prisons. And the rest of the world eventually took their side.

If apartheid means 'people with less rights than other people in the same geographical area' -as it is being used here over and over- there are at least two other examples:
The USA was once one. So was India. How did MLK win? How many planes did he hijack? How many suicide bombings did Gandhi order?

Every Hamas/Hezbollha/PLO/PA action for the last 80 years has made the world more Jewish. They are further away from a State of their own than they have ever been.
There are 2m Palestinians in Israel proper, another 2.5m in the WB, they could shut down all four highways into Tel Aviv tomorrow and never fire a shot. What's the IDF going to do? Kill them all, put them all in prison?
If Hamas is determined to have a gun fight to the death they'll get one.

#39 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 03:23 AM | Reply

I can't even name an apartheid state other than South Africa

#37 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2023-12-06 01:24 AM | FLAG:

America. duh.

#40 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 08:26 AM | Reply

Depending on who's making an argument, apartheid extends beyond simple race discrimination to also include sexual and religious discrimination that's institutionalized. So more or less that covers China, Iran, Israel, Malaysia, Myanmar, North Korea, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, the Soviet Union, Sudan, the United States.

and Hamas run Gaza.

#41 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 08:28 AM | Reply

"They made the oppression economically unsustainable"

Doubt.

#42 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 08:53 AM | Reply

But, Iron Dome vs homemade rockets seems unsustainable.

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 08:54 AM | Reply

Speaking of economically unsustainable,

Why does Israel allow Hamas to get money?

#44 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 09:11 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It is, and Israeli isn't stupid. Iron Beam has arrived and over the next 5 years as its deployed the economics of rocket launches inverts. $4 per shot against a $500 rocket.

#45 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 09:11 AM | Reply

Israel can't control the Rafah crossing without invading a US backed Egypt. Everything goes through Rafah.

#46 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 09:12 AM | Reply

"Israel can't control the Rafah crossing without invading a US backed Egypt. Everything goes through Rafah."

Will Israel's latest invasion change that?

Or will Israel have to just keep killing the Palestinians to save them from being used as Hamas human shields?

#47 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 09:15 AM | Reply

Maybe. They're still in the middle of flooding the North half before they can move to the Southern end.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 09:24 AM | Reply

Speaking of economically unsustainable:

Does Israel have a chance without US aid?

Isn't Israel just "our side" in a proxy war between The West and The Islamic World?

Why Isn't Israel just "our side" in a proxy war between The West and The Islamic World?

Especially when anybody who knows the history of Zionism knows Zionism is a plan born in, raised by, and put into action through The West.

Since it's topical, Apartheid in South Africa is another such Western idea.

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 09:45 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

I can't tell if Blusky is acknowledging or positioning or Devil's Advocating Israel as an Apartheid State or what.

But this seems relevant to that discussion:
"Since 2019, publicly displaying the 1928"1994 flag in South Africa is banned and it is classified as hate speech.[252]"
Blusky, you really think there's an appetite in Israel to make it a hate crime to fly the Star of David? There's a willingness among Israelis for Truth and Reconciliation?

Well, not among the hard-liners, and not among the 450,000 Zionists occupying what they want to call the State of Judea en.wikipedia.org

#50 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 09:55 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Apartheid transcends silly East-West categorization.

#51 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 09:56 AM | Reply

"Apartheid transcends silly East-West categorization."

Show me.

"In 1948, the National Party was elected to power. It strengthened the racial segregation begun under Dutch and British colonial rule. Taking Canada's Indian Act as a framework,[70] the nationalist government classified all peoples into three races (Whites, Blacks, Indians and Coloured people (people of mixed race)) and developed rights and limitations for each. The white minority (less than 20%)[71] controlled the vastly larger black majority. The legally institutionalised segregation became known as apartheid. While whites enjoyed the highest standard of living in all of Africa, comparable to First World Western nations, the black majority remained disadvantaged by almost every standard, including income, education, housing, and life expectancy.[72] The Freedom Charter, adopted in 1955 by the Congress Alliance, demanded a non-racial society and an end to discrimination."

#52 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 10:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

A combination of internal and international resistance to apartheid helped dismantle the white supremacist regime.

The formal end of the apartheid government in South Africa was hard-won. It took decades of activism from both inside and outside the country, as well as international economic pressure, to end the regime that allowed the country's white minority to subjugate its Black majority. www.history.com

The end of apartheid can be credited to the combined efforts of the South African people and governments of the world community, including the United States.

Influenced to an extent by the growing U.S. civil rights movement and the social equality laws enacted as part of President Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" platform, U.S. government leaders began to warm up to and ultimately support the anti-apartheid cause.

Finally, in 1986, the U.S. Congress, overriding President Ronald Reagan's veto, enacted the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act imposing the first substantial economic sanctions to be levied against South Africa for its practice of racial apartheid.

Among other provisions, the Anti-Apartheid Act:

Outlawed the importation of many South African products such as steel, iron, uranium, coal, textiles, and agricultural commodities into the United States;
prohibited the South African government from holding U.S. bank accounts;
banned South African Airways from landing at U.S. airports;
blocked any form of U.S. foreign aid or assistance to the then pro-apartheid South African government; and
banned all new U.S. investments and loans in South Africa.
www.thoughtco.com

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 10:21 AM | Reply

So, the way to end Israeli Apartheid, at least for us non-Israelis, is to support the BDS movement.

What is BDS?

The Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement works to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians and pressure Israel to comply with international law

bdsmovement.net

#54 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 10:22 AM | Reply

"If a government "gives" a right, it's a privilege,not a right.

Rights are asserted or they mean nothing.

The Palestinians are asserting theirs.

Israel is pushing back.

It's called a war of independence. Like the American Revolution,or the struggle against apartheid South Africa.

The Israeli's are the Bad Guys here.

Murdering,Thieving,Ethno-Supremacist, PIGS.

They will Lose this by Overreaching.

The world will be sickened by their actions.

Their Impunity is coming to an End.

#38 | POSTED BY EFFETEPOSER"
First off, who cares what you think as your are either a traitor or a Russia/Iranian agent sent into a social media site in the West to stir up trouble with your lies and disinformation? Of course, you do not support the Jews because you are a bigot.

That being said, I long for my longtime friends on the left to admit they have ignored all the violence of rape, torture and murder taking place in Sudan and other African states. All the hatred in the world is reserved for the Jews but no condemnation of Moslems killing and raping other Moslems in Africa or subjugating the women in entire nations in the Middle East and other places. Nada! I guess because a war is not covered in prime time like this conflict in Israel and Gaza it does not exist or matter? How's about the 7.5 million children and women living under the boot and whip in Afghanistan where children are married off to old men and not a word. Yet, when the Israelis defend themselves all the world must condemn them? And, no Gaza is not an open prison. And even if it was, why do the Egyptians get a pass as they hold the key to the door in southern Gaza? Does their position in this conflict not matter? Jordan also has a boarder but not a word about them. Does the fact that people in Gaza do not get to vote or decide their direction of their country not matter? Hamas tortures and kills any opposition to their evil rule and you never even talk about this. Also, Ignoring the use of rape as a weapon of war, in any conflict, is disgusting and needs to be called out. There is some coverage of this in Africa, not much, but there has been scant mention of this at the UN or Amnesty International for what had happened in Israel by these beasts from Hamas. For me, my fellow leftist are hypocrites of the highest order on this subject and should be ashamed of themselves. How's about giving a damn about Sudan's people, Iran's people, Saudi Arabian women and Afghanistans women and children. Also, in Libya there are slave markets with Moslems vending black Africans but I hear nothing from the left at all. Why is this? I guess hating on the Jews is just so 'in' right now you would not wish to be left out?

#55 | Posted by Wildman62 at 2023-12-06 10:22 AM | Reply

Show me.

#52 | POSTED BY SNOOFY AT 2023-12-06 10:03 AM | FLAG:

It would take too long. There will be 4 exams and a final, along with 15 hours of lecture and homework a week, for the next 3 months, going through the history of systemic racism in governments through time.

as for BDS. Not really. We're 18% of their exports and the growth of it is already well under inflation.

#56 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 10:39 AM | Reply

So no, BDS won't work.

#57 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 10:39 AM | Reply

"It would take too long"

No it wouldn't.

"There will be 4 exams and a final, along with 15 hours of lecture and homework a week, for the next 3 months, going through the history of systemic racism in governments through time."

That doesn't mean Apartheid in South Africa wasn't a Westerns construct.

South Africa itself is a Western construct. Are you dumb?

#58 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 10:52 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Really reaching with a historical concept to make it Western. Cognitive bias engaged!

#59 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 10:59 AM | Reply

Lol, that racist view that Western people think of everything and it's their construct.

#60 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2023-12-06 11:04 AM | Reply

What you're saying is irrelevant.

The West doing it is what makes it Western.

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 11:11 AM | Reply

You, uh, gonna tell us The West didn't colonize Africa?

You aren't this stupid.

#62 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 11:13 AM | Reply

"They made the oppression economically unsustainable. They were much more clever than Hamas and knew they could never win in a straight up gun fight."

Maybe most importantly, they never demanded the creation of an extremist state where they could murder or expel those with whom they disagreed. They only wanted the same rights as everyone else.

Beware of any group that demands the creation of their own state.

#63 | Posted by madbomber at 2023-12-06 12:21 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Maybe most importantly, they never demanded the creation of an extremist state where they could murder or expel those with whom they disagreed."

That's what the Whites did when they rolled out Apartheid.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 02:24 PM | Reply

A combination of internal and international resistance to apartheid helped dismantle the white supremacist regime.
Internal ~non-violent~ resistance. The non-violent part was the key to gaining the international part. As long as Palestinian resistance involves killing as many Jews as they can the non-Arab world will align with Israel or stay out of the fight.

is acknowledging our positioning or Devil's Advocating Israel as an Apartheid State
I don't think Israel is an apartheid (and I don't think you believe it is either) I think "apartheid" is something dumb people heard on TikTok and are now convinced it is an argument. If someone really believes Israel is an apartheid State they should be advocating non-violent resistance. That's the only thing that has any chance of succeeding against are far superior military power.

The PA is worse than useless. Decades of militancy and martyr payments and their own greed has made the situation in the WB worse for Palestinians than it was before the autistic "road map to peace". The best thing for the Palestinians in the WB is to drop the pipe dream of a Two Start Solution, they blew their chance(s). The C sections will get more prosperous over time and the A and B sections will continue to get worse. If they get annexed Israel can no longer treat the WB as occupied territory and the voting power of Palestinians doubles over night. Israel has a Parliamentary system so a unified Arab Party can wield disproportionate power inside a split-vote Jewish majority. They'll get more Arab judges and police officers and cabinet members. And Israel will get the one thing they can't refuse; all of Jerusalem under one flag. From there maybe something can be done to help integrate Gaza, but that seems more and more like a lost cause everyday. They've been suckled on hatred for Jews their whole lives and seem unable to do get past knuckle headed self-destruction.

Isn't Israel just "our side" in a proxy war between The West and The Islamic World?
Do you believe this is a real war?
Do you believe it is worth winning?

#65 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 04:25 PM | Reply

Do you believe this is a real war?

It's not.

It's an extermination.

Do you believe it is worth winning?

What, in your opinion, would you consider "winning"?

#66 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 04:38 PM | Reply

The adults are talking clownshow, go find a Trump thread.

#67 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 04:59 PM | Reply

Do you believe it is worth winning?

#65 | POSTED BY BLUSKY

A better question would be: Is it winnable?

Or is it really just a continuation of every war ever designed to feed the MIC and the powerful? Which means it never ends. The best thing that could happen, if humans didn't have such a subservient nature, would be for all the soldiers everywhere to simply walk away. And tell the masters to stop using them as gullible pawns.

#68 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2023-12-06 05:15 PM | Reply

A One State Solution would mean giving up Apartheid and ethnic cleansing.

It would mean that the Jews would be a minority in Israel. It would mean that they have to treat non Jews as equals, politically and otherwise.

For these reasons I believe that the Israeli leadership will banish or kill off the Palestinians before ever allowing one State.

A One State Solution actually scares the Israeli right far more than a Two State solution.

They would have to stop the ethnic vainglory.

#69 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2023-12-06 05:50 PM | Reply

The adults are talking clownshow, go find a Trump thread.
#67 | POSTED BY BLUSKY

Can't answer the question, makes a personal insult instead.

Well done.

#70 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 05:51 PM | Reply

Israeli leadership will banish or kill off the Palestinians before ever allowing one State.

What do you think is happening right now?

You don't negotiate for hostages by dropping bombs on the hostages and killing civilians.

#71 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 05:53 PM | Reply

Do you believe it is worth winning?
#65 | POSTED BY BLUSULK

A better question would be: Is it winnable?
#68 | POSTED BY WHATSLEFT

Since BluSulk won't answer the question.

Perhaps you can.

What would a win look like?

I only see one option.

The elimination of all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

Do you see another?

#72 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 06:00 PM | Reply

"Internal ~non-violent~ resistance."

There was violent resistance on both sides.

There was also violent resistance that led to India's indepdendence.

The thing you are doing here is invoking a modern myth used to discredit other forms of resistance.
roarmag.org
www.researchgate.net

Let me put it this way: Why don't you condemn those who blew up the King David Hotel for their violent resistance? Or George Washington for his sneak attack on Christmas? Because of the side you're on.

#73 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:03 PM | Reply

"I don't think Israel is an apartheid"

Are you including the West Bank here? If so, you're blind and crazy.

#74 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:05 PM | Reply

"The PA is worse than useless."

Regardless, Israel signed up to have a worse than useless counterpart for their neighbors when they agreed to hide behind the UN's skirts and form their Zionist Homeland For European Jews.

#75 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

That idiot has stated he's afraid Hamas is coming to kill him.

Paranoid delusions.

#76 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 06:06 PM | Reply

It would mean that the Jews would be a minority in Israel.
Not for now. The demographic trend would be a problem for the Jews in a couple of generations. All the more reason for them to show they can lead a multi-ethnic State before they become a minority. I think they are up for it. And I think the birth rate among Palestinians will drop once Palestinian women have rights and can be more than incubators for more Palestinian men.

One State Solution actually scares the Israeli right far more than a Two State solution.
They get Jerusalem, though. They won't pass that up even if it causes demographic problems down the road.

Do you have a suggestion? Or are you happy to keep up the status quo and just cry about how mean the Jews are forever?

would be for all the soldiers everywhere to simply walk away
So roll over, show our bellies and politely ask the jihadists to not hurt us.
Great plan.

#77 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 06:06 PM | Reply

Do you believe this is a real war?
Do you believe it is worth winning?

Yes, yes, but I don't think Israel can win it. In fact I think they're losing worse than they ever have before, by doing exactly what Hamas expected them to do, which is completely overreact and kill 10 Palestinian civilians every dead Israeli civilian like they always do.

If you see a path to peace at the end of this tunnel of rubble in Gaza, try and describe it. I'll pour a stiff drink.

#78 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:08 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Are you including the West Bank here?
The WB is occupied territory, it can't be an apartheid. The A and B parts are controlled by the PA. If it were all part of Israel proper and the Palestinians were then treated as second class citizens that would be an apartheid.

#79 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 06:10 PM | Reply

"Or are you happy to keep up the status quo and just cry about how mean the Jews are forever?"

I'm fine with the status quo. I don't see why Zionist are not, and I don't see any evidence they are not.

Israel's price in Jewish blood to live in Israel is a fraction of their historical losses in Europe. Am I wrong?

#80 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:10 PM | Reply

cry about how mean the Jews are forever?

This is how you know there's no actual argument being made and it's all about appealing to emotions.

Jews aren't the problem.

The conservatives in control of the Israeli government are the problem.

#81 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 06:13 PM | Reply

"The conservatives in control of the Israeli government are the problem."

The conservative who assassinated the non-conservative in control of the Israeli government is Israel's Jewish Hamas problem,

and Blusky has no solution for it because the solution is burning down the homes of 450,000 Zionist cray religious --------.

---- Zionists, they've gone just as ------ as Republicans, and for the same reasons.

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:17 PM | Reply

"The WB is occupied territory, it can't be an apartheid."

What's all those Zionists doing living there under protection of IDF? Do Palestinians have freedom to travel those Zionist occupied areas, or are the Palestinians kept "apart."

Holy ---- dude. Are you drunk?

#83 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"A Palestinian child sitting on a roadblock at Al-Shuhada Street within the Old City of Hebron in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. Palestinians have nicknamed the street "Apartheid Street" because it is closed to Palestinian traffic and open only to Israeli settlers and tourists.[1]" en.wikipedia.org

Are you denying this?
???

#84 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:25 PM | Reply

Holy ---- dude. Are you drunk?
#83 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

No. He's just really ------- dumb.

But posts a lot to make up for it.

Like HumTake.

#85 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 06:28 PM | Reply

" Not for now. The demographic trend would be a problem for the Jews in a couple of generations. All the more reason for them to show they can lead a multi-ethnic State before they become a minority. I think they are up for it" Blusky

I hope you prove correct. But I can't stop thinking about what happened in Lebanon when Christians lost the majority. Even the reclusive Druse were persecuted.

#86 | Posted by BellRinger at 2023-12-06 06:31 PM | Reply

If you see a path to peace at the end of this tunnel of rubble in Gaza, try and describe it.
They need good faith negotiators working on their behalf, Hamas will never be that. I trust the Pals in Israel proper, if they are combined with the Pals in the WB they will have nearly 5m Pals in a voting bloc to contest elections against a deeply divided Jewish bloc. Only then can the Pals form a real coalition government and be more than occasional king makers with a handful of seats in the Knesset. They'll get to be like most democracies: deep political divides with all sides forced to make compromises. But as long as the PA pretends to seek a Two State Solution they will remain in an infinite holding pattern going nowhere.

I don't know even a solid Pal coalition can help Gaza, though. They seem hell bent on their goal of One State with no Jews. Worse case scenario the WB Pals will finally get real State and real power in that State and it will empower the Pals in Israel proper to cut a better deal.

#87 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 06:33 PM | Reply

"So roll over, show our bellies and politely ask the jihadists to not hurt us."

Please outline your plan for the Zionist State to live peaceably in the company of Jihadists.

If you don't have one, please acknowledge removal of the Jihadists aka ethnic cleansing is the path forward for the Zionist State.

It's just that simple.

#88 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:36 PM | Reply

"I trust the Pals in Israel proper, if they are combined with the Pals in the WB"

So, Annexation of the West Bank. Combined with the war in Gaza,
Israel to control the land "from the river to the sea."
And no Right To Exist for the Palestinian State.
Remind you of anyone?

#89 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:41 PM | Reply

Are you denying this?
Nope. I'm denying Israel is under any obligation, legal, moral or otherwise to provide security or voting right to Pals under the authority of the PA. The PA wanted control of the A and B areas and they have done a terrible job of managing it.

What's all those Zionists doing living there under protection of IDF?
Settling open land. Land Jordan doesn't want back and lost in a war of aggression.
What are all the Poles doing in Silesia?
What are all the Americans doing in Texas?

#90 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 06:44 PM | Reply

"Settling open land."

Oh dear.

"A Land With No People, For A People With No Land" is still a thing people believe?

Your mommy and daddy did a number on you.

#91 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:48 PM | Reply

"I'm denying Israel is under any obligation, legal, moral or otherwise to provide security or voting right to Pals under the authority of the PA."

That doesn't address the Apartheid nature of IDF/Zionist settlement in the Occupied West Bank.

You seem to be in solid possession of the facts and the history. But it appears you're also missing a few in some very specific areas.

#92 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:51 PM | Reply

Please outline your plan for the Zionist State to live peaceably in the company of Jihadists
No one can live in peace with Jihadists, not even other Muslims.
The "Zionist State" already lives in peace with Palestinians inside the borders of the "Zionist State".

And no Right To Exist for the Palestinian State
No State has a "Right to Exist". That's not how Statehood works anywhere at any time in history.

#93 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 06:51 PM | Reply

"The PA wanted control of the A and B areas and they have done a terrible job of managing it."

Can't manage the lands properly was as excused used in America to drive unwanted people, in our case Native Americans, off the lands to make room for Settlers.

#94 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:52 PM | Reply

"No State has a "Right to Exist"

That only matters when you predicate your right to exist on the UN said so. The UN was created by the United States for the purposes of carrying out United States foreign policy.

But hey, if you want to say a Jewish State Does Not Have A Right To Exist, that's when you get called an Anti-Semite.

#95 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 06:54 PM | Reply

#95 Only governments grant rights.

There is no government to grant those rights.

Do you think rights come from God?

#96 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-06 07:01 PM | Reply

Israel is Doomed.

I'm glad I don't live within five thousand miles of that Toilet.

Too much history is not a good thing. Sooner or later this will get resolved.

Most likely by Extermination.

Kind of Ironic that the Jews have become what they've Suffered.

A cycle of Horror.

And America HELPED.

#97 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2023-12-06 07:02 PM | Reply

Does a people have a right to self determination?
#34 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

No. Governments give rights, not god.

#36 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

Scratch a conservative you find they hate America.

#98 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-06 07:06 PM | Reply

OneNut has never kept his hate for America a secret.

#99 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 07:07 PM | Reply

"What is the only fool-proof, never-failed, works-every-time solution to breaking an apartheid State?":
You need a better money line. Nobody knows what you're angling at.
I can't even name an apartheid state other than South Africa and it fell due to a variety of circumstances.

{Snip}

#37 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Northern Ireland circa 1960-1989

Consider how that one fell.

#100 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-06 07:09 PM | Reply

Israel is Doomed.

Showing the world they're nothing but blood thirsty maniacs has not been the best strategy.

#101 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 07:10 PM | Reply

That doesn't address the Apartheid nature of IDF/Zionist settlement in the Occupied West Bank.
It can't "occupied" and an apartheid at the same time. That's not what apartheid means.

But it appears you're also missing a few in some very specific areas.
It appears you believe Pals occupy some unique status as a People. They are immune from their own actions and rhetoric and the consequences of their actions are never their fault. They get to live outside of Israeli and international law but are still entitled to those protections.

#102 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 07:10 PM | Reply

A better question would be: Is it winnable?
Or is it really just a continuation of every war ever designed to feed the MIC and the powerful? Which means it never ends. The best thing that could happen, if humans didn't have such a subservient nature, would be for all the soldiers everywhere to simply walk away. And tell the masters to stop using them as gullible pawns.

#68 | POSTED BY WHATSLEFT

Which begs the question: Where have all the flowers gone?

#103 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-06 07:13 PM | Reply

"Do you think rights come from God?"

I do, and apparently so did the founding fathers:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men ... "

-Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776

Anyway, governments do not exist to create rights, governments exist to protect them.

#104 | Posted by Expectingreign at 2023-12-06 07:13 PM | Reply

They get to live outside of Israeli ... law

Is that why they're subject to Israeli laws?

There is no Palestine.

Just Israel.

Within Israel are two territories they keep Palestinians and treat them as criminals and terrorists.

#105 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 07:14 PM | Reply

"No one can live in peace with Jihadists, not even other Muslims."

Neither can Muslims seem to stop them from taking root.

It's not reasonable to expect Israel/Jews to be able to solve Muslims problems for them, especially if they can't even keep their own Zionists from inflaming the Jihadist spirit by driving Palestinians out of the West Bank and destroying Gaza.

So, since "No one can live in peace with Jihadists"

What is the solution, other than to drive them into the sea?

There can be no Two State Solution here, but the two state solution is what the world agreed to in 1948 and apparently that matters juuust enough to continue to be a thorn in Israel's side forever.

I don't understand why Israel has allowed these terrorist to oppress these Palestinians for generations. What kinds of things do they think the terrorist will teach the Palestinians in school? It is guaranteed to make peace impossible for at least a generation.

Israeli leadership, and the hard-liners, puts me in mind of the Second Amendment enthusiasts who especially like the gun violence in Chicago every weekend. They wouldn't want any sort of effective gun control to come along and actually make those streets safe. They support bad policies because it hurts their enemies worse.

Israel should have never agreed to a Two State Solution if they knew it was never actually going to be possible. That's why the Israel Apologists try to conflate anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. They bait and switch the UN Mandate with the Zionist Manifesto. And then they say you're Anti-Semitic if you say No State has a "Right to Exist". That's not how Statehood works anywhere at any time in history.

#106 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 07:16 PM | Reply

if you want to say a Jewish State Does Not Have A Right To Exist
It doesn't need a "right" to exist. It has an army and allies, take those away and she'll pass into history with the Minoans and the Hittites. Rights have nothing to do with it.

was as excuse used in America to drive unwanted people, in our case Native Americans, off the lands to make room for Settlers
Agreed. Let me know when you are ready to sign over your house to the Susquehannock.

#107 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 07:19 PM | Reply

Anyway, governments do not exist to create rights, governments exist to protect them.
#104 | POSTED BY EXPECTINGREIGN

Since there is no god, there are no rights. There are temporary privileges that can be given or taken away by government. I do think this is true in a democracy-Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. No rights though, Dobbs is proof of that

#108 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-06 07:21 PM | Reply

Northern Ireland circa 1960-1989
Consider how that one fell.
#100 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS

Violence played a decisive role in ending that.
As did diplomacy.
U2 might have tipped the balance.
There has always been a strong affinity for the Palestinian cause in Ireland.

#109 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 07:21 PM | Reply

"Agreed. Let me know when you are ready to sign over your house to the Susquehannock."

So then call it Ethnic Cleansing when it happens in West Bank, because that's what's happening and that's what it's called.

Is this really hard for you? Do you really not see it?

#110 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 07:22 PM | Reply

#107 Like Marlon Brando, but bigger
You'll find that creature at the bottom of the deep down Susquehanna River

#111 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 07:24 PM | Reply

There has always been a strong affinity for the Palestinian cause in Ireland.

#109 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Gee, I wonder why?

#112 | Posted by truthhurts at 2023-12-06 07:25 PM | Reply

Blusky

Apartheid denier, ethnic cleansing denier, Don't be this guy.

You can think all that's a good idea, I'm not sure I see a better one that isn't a Gene Roddenberry fantasy.

But acknowledge it for what it is. Just like Jews or Navaho have no right to their own country, they have a right to what they can hold.

It's a bit... opportunistic of a world-view, and lacks an over-arching narrative purpose, but it's certainly got a ring of truth to it.

#113 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 07:30 PM | Reply


Gee, I wonder why?
#112 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS A

Because it's easier for them to get into Ireland, than Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Turkey and every other Islamic country.

Gee, I wonder why?

#114 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-06 07:54 PM | Reply

So then call it Ethnic Cleansing when it happens in West Bank
If it helps move the argument along, sure, but reluctantly.
Will you call what happened to the Jews in every Arab country ethnic cleansing? What has happened to every minority population in Arab countries. What is still happening today in every Arab country.

If Israel isn't allowed to police areas A and B I don't see how we can hold her responsible for what happens there. The PA and Israel had to have known that insane archipelago would be impossible to govern, which was probably the point all along. The IDF wont protect the Pals in the WB and the PA can't protect them or prefer the violence so they can whinge about it on the BBC. But we have to remember it was hoisted upon the people living there by bad-faith actors (some of them terrorists) after losing a war and Israel accepted it, as they always have, as a compromise and a path to a Two State Solution. By now it should be evident to anyone paying attention there will never be a Two State Solution. A 1400 year old blood feud has made it impossible.
One State with two peoples (and no Jihadists) is still possible but that option is on the clock. As the population of Pals keeps increasing (unique for an ethnic cleansing) Jews will one day not have the option of peacefully absorbing WB Pals and giving them more rights they have ever had under the PA or any of their Arab neighbors.

#115 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 08:08 PM | Reply

A 1400 year old blood feud has made it impossible.

That, and moving Europeans to what's now called Israel and telling them to start colonizing the land.

We needed a military base and knew we could trust Europeans more than we could Middle Easterners.

#116 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 08:17 PM | Reply

moving Europeans to what's now called Israel
European Jews didn't arrive until the late 30's and no one "moved" them there. I'm sure you would have preferred they go to the gas chambers.
Maybe "the Europeans" should not have "moved" all the Arabs into Judea after the First World War without giving them citizenship.

We needed a military base
The first US base in Israel was built in 2017.
Stop typing, moron. You aren't built for this conversation. Go watch TikTok.

#117 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 08:42 PM | Reply

"If Israel isn't allowed to police areas A and B."

Israel is policing them both and has been since 1967 in the West Bank. Since the 90s they are aggressively seizing territory there, with no end in sight.

Israel stopped policing Gaza a few decades ago and now they are at war with Gaza and plan to occupy all of it indefinitely.

When you police land that is not your land, you are either an invader or an occupier.

This is incompatible with the democratic wet dream you had about Palestinian representation in a Democratic Israel.

#118 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 08:50 PM | Reply

European Jews didn't arrive until the late 30's and no one "moved" them there.

If you gotta ignore history to have a point ...

Europeans were moved to Israel after WW2, when the allied forces didn't want them in Europe. Or in America for that matter.

The final solution to the Jewish problem in Europe, was to move them to Israel.

If this had been decided prior to the war, the holocaust could have been avoided.

#119 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 08:51 PM | Reply

"The PA and Israel had to have known that insane archipelago would be impossible to govern"

The archipelago wasn't the 1948 plan. Or a Palestinian plan.

"The Palestinian enclaves are areas in the West Bank designated for Palestinians under a variety of U.S. and Israeli-led proposals to end the Israeli"Palestinian conflict.[1] The enclaves are often compared to the nominally self-governing black homelands created in apartheid-era South Africa,[a] and are thus referred to as bantustans.[b][c] They have been referred to figuratively as the Palestinian archipelago,[d] among other terms. The de facto status in 2023 is that Israel controls all area outside these enclaves."

#120 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 08:53 PM | Reply

The first US base in Israel was built in 2017.

Israel is our military base.

Why else care about what happens there?

#121 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 08:54 PM | Reply

"One State with two peoples (and no Jihadists) is still possible but that option is on the clock."

Odd statement considering Rabin was assassinated for committing to the Two State Solution.

Yigal Amir is why Jihadists will always control the dialogue.

#122 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 08:56 PM | Reply

450,000 Zionist Occupiers that you can't see as a valid reason for Islamic Resistance is why Jihadists will always control the dialogue.

#123 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 08:58 PM | Reply

"European Jews didn't arrive until the late 30's"

Kinda like those "Palestinians" who arrived around that time. Who controlled the borders then, a European power I believe.

This is a European manufactured conflict that reeks of Colonialism. That's what Arabs and liberals on college campuses don't like about it.

There is no indigenous tradition of democracy in the region. It's only achievable through military conquest.

#124 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 09:02 PM | Reply

Blusky has already admitted Force And Murder rule the day.

No Rights, No Legal Framework, Just Violence and Economic Muscle.

How is Hamas anything but Amateurs in Terrorism compared to that?

NO State, No Legal Credibility or Military machine besides Militias.

They're David to Israel's Goliath.

Will they slay the Giant?

#125 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2023-12-06 09:13 PM | Reply

Israel is policing them both and has been since 1967 in the West Bank
My understanding is that since Elon in 2002 the PA handle all the security inside A, at least officially. The IDF can enter B areas but don't and rarely intercede in settlement violence against Pals in area B. The WB Pals prefer local armed militias for protection rather than the PA which they trust only slightly more than the IDF.

When you police land that is not your land, you are either an invader or an occupier.
Normally yes, but the A,B,C partitions made the whole affair sketchy at best. As long as the PA pretends to be moving to a Two State Solution Israel is free from responsibility in areas A and B. I think it should all be Israel. They are the only Nation with any claim. Jordan doesn't want it back, the PA have proven unreliable and the Pals living there dont trust them and can't un-elect them.

Israel stopped policing Gaza
It's wrong to compare Gaza and the WB. The WB Pals have no UN agency holding their hand and tucking them in at night. They don't have off-book money arming them and protecting them from settlers. They don't have supply trucks being escorted across the border to fed them or build schools and hospitals. WB Pals aren't trying to coup their Arab neighbors. The WB Pals are under the authority of victim-merchants they can't depose.
Gazans are run by mask-off terrorists, they elect terrorists and support them. They carry out terrorism whenever they get the opportunity. They have no intention of living in peace with Jews.

Odd statement considering Rabin was assassinated for committing to the Two State Solution
Why is it odd? All Israelis don't think alike. They have right-wing factions just like we do. Booth killed Lincoln, does that mean no Americans thought the Civil War was justified?

why Jihadists will always control the dialogue
They can have the dialog. As long as they dont control any land I'll be satisfied.

#126 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 09:33 PM | Reply

"They can have the dialog. As long as they dont control any land I'll be satisfied."

I fear you misunderstand me.

In Western parlance, controlling the dialogue means they have achieved the condition whereby the right to govern is derived from the consent of the governed.

It's why some people make a big deal about Hamas winning the Palestinian elections, as an example of how that tradition influences the narrative. Free and fair and representative elections are yet another Western construct. It's what makes elections in single party states so funny.

You sound as though you may not have been raised in the Western Secular Democratic tradition which gave birth to Israel. As though your cultural tradition originates behind the Iron Curtain.

What land was controlled by those who did 9/11? It's not a suitable way to address the problem.

#127 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 09:48 PM | Reply

"As long as the PA pretends to be moving to a Two State Solution Israel is free from responsibility in areas A and B."

How is the engulfing entity not responsible for what it engulfs?

"A number of Israeli-U.S. peace plans, including the Allon Plan, the Drobles World Zionist Organization plan, Menachem Begin's plan, Benjamin Netanyahu's "Allon Plus" plan, the 2000 Camp David Summit, and Sharon's vision of a Palestinian state have proposed an enclave-type territory " i.e. a group of non-contiguous areas surrounded, divided, and, ultimately, controlled by Israel;[h][i] as has the more recent Trump peace plan.[6][7] This has been referred to as the "Bantustan option".[j]

"The consequences of the creation of these fragmented Palestinian areas has been studied widely, and has been shown to have had a "devastating impact on the economy, social networks, [and] the provision of basic services such as healthcare and education".[k]"

#128 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 09:56 PM | Reply

#128 Cherry picking.

Clintons plan was contiguous, it was rejected.
realwindow.wordpress.com

There has never been an acceptable solution to the "Palestinians", can you name one?

Have they ever put one forth? I haven't come across it.


"The consequences of the creation of these fragmented Palestinian areas has been studied widely, and has been shown to have had a "devastating impact on the economy, social networks, [and] the provision of basic services such as healthcare and education".[k]"

Losing gracefully would be the winning solution for everyone, Arabs (non-israeli citizens) prefer keeping their Israel ID card.
www.algemeiner.com

#129 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-06 10:10 PM | Reply

West Bank: "I think it should all be Israel. They are the only Nation with any claim. Jordan doesn't want it back, the PA have proven unreliable and the Pals living there dont trust them and can't un-elect them."

Gaza Strip: "Gazans are run by mask-off terrorists, they elect terrorists and support them. They carry out terrorism whenever they get the opportunity. They have no intention of living in peace with Jews."

So, what we have here, is a one state solution, where Israel controls the land from the river to the sea.
Hopefully I am making it crystal clear that this is the same thing Hamas wants.
And that's not a good look for Israel.

What's the plan to, uh, re-educate the millions of kids whose crappy apartment buildings you just blew up? Oh you don't have one?

It's not so much that Israel is a failed colony, but that it can never succeed, and it especially can't succeed with leadership that can't do the song and dance of being a responsible member of the global community.

What incentive exists for the Muslim world to make peace with Israel, that isn't almost always going to be outweighed by the propaganda value of a Zionist Occupation? My solution, I think these Zio-Kibbutzniks should just move to Oklahoma and Oregon. They'll fit right in and land is cheap. Or at least stay within the 1948 boundaries.

I can appreciate how Jewish mythology and folklore not to mention history tells the tale of a people oppressed and on the run for five thousand years -- "A tribe of humans known through ancient records to be located somewhere, on a distant, shining planet " a planet called Earth." Now that they do have a land they can call their own, they are not going to let go and went nuclear as soon as feasibly possible in perfect Mad Scientist style. It's understandable that they have a pretty big "Right To Exist" chip on their shoulder at the moment.

Speaking of South Africa, they gave up their nuclear program because it was not only a failure it was a pointless expense when you're trying to live by colonial rules in a global economy built on trade and technology, where the threat of war is intended to be mitigated by the cost of war to any warring nation's economy. This was a lesson South Africa had just learned from sanctions, of course.

Israel, being a tiny outpost, naturally sees it differently.

#130 | Posted by snoofy at 2023-12-06 10:26 PM | Reply

controlling the dialogue means they have achieved the condition whereby the right to govern is derived from the consent of the governed
Yeah, I don't care. If Jihad is what sways your vote I don't care how you got there or what misfortune might find you as a result.
I doubt a single person who voted for Hamas was thinking of Yigal Amir when they checked the box for the kill-all-the-Jews 'political party'.

What land was controlled by those who did 9/11?
Parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
They didn't control Saudi Arabia but they were funded by the people who control Saudi Arabia.

How is the engulfing entity not responsible for what it engulfs?
When it cedes that authority to another entity that accepts the authority.
I mean, you're using "engulf" so you're clearly recognizing there are two separate entities, one inside another.
Is it your position Israel should take back full control of the WB? Because that's my position, take it back, call the whole thing "Israel" and give everyone there full citizenship.

#131 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 10:53 PM | Reply

Hopefully I am making it crystal clear that this is the same thing Hamas wants.
No it isn't, and you know it isn't.
My Israel is a land where two peoples live side by side in a secular democracy.
Hamas' Palestine is a land With No Jews guided by Allah.

#132 | Posted by BluSky at 2023-12-06 10:58 PM | Reply

Sure,if you say so.

That's not the reality of Israeli policy.

Policy is cruel repression and the routine violation of human rights under color of law.

Policy is only the Jews have self determination in Israel, as it's a JEWISH state.

Netanyahu's own words.

#133 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2023-12-06 11:29 PM | Reply

Despite all your rationalizations.

There's one thing you're ignoring.

When Hezbollah attacks from Lebanon and Israel defends itself, no one says anything.

Because that's Israel's right.

To defend itself.

But Palestinians are living on territory under Israel's control.

They don't have their own nation and their fight for freedom is something people sympathize with.

If Palestine was its own country - like Lebanon - and Hamas attacked. They would be treated the same as any nation that attacks another.

Not difficult to understand.

#134 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-06 11:46 PM | Reply

But Palestinians are living on territory under Israel's control.
They don't have their own nation and their fight for freedom is something people sympathize with.
-clownshack

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

I don't really sympathize with people that commit sexual atrocities.

Again, take the loss gracefully.

Would Palastians be better off under Israeli or Hamas authority?

#135 | Posted by oneironaut at 2023-12-07 12:00 AM | Reply

I don't really sympathize with people that commit sexual atrocities.

Somehow I doubt that. Especially since you felt the need to make such a statement.

Would Palastians be better off under Israeli or Hamas authority?
#135 | POSTED BY ONENUT

Palestinians would be better off with their own country.

#136 | Posted by ClownShack at 2023-12-07 12:24 AM | Reply

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