#24
Florida law limits costs that can be assessed to those requesting records to actual costs of duplication. If this has changed, I'd be right there with you raising hell about it. Not sure where you are, here is an example of fees in Bocaink, which look pretty reasonable to me.

Lampy,
I am still open to discuss the "Blue Wall of Silence" but would need you to present an example in Florida, and more specifically, one that was not adequately investigated by the current systems I described above.

Deterrent effect is often misunderstood by rational people who project their own reasonable thought patterns on others. Most criminals (including police officers who commit criminal acts) are not doing a rational risk/reward analysis prior to committing an act. They often lack impulse control and foresight.

For example, in the cases mentioned above, the potential consequences (loss of employment, incarceration) obviously GREATLY outweigh the potential reward (getting an "atta boy" for a drug arrest, getting laid). No rational person would take those odds. An irrational person isn't deterred.

#22 And do the police now act differently, aware of that 30-second buffer that the body-cam has, since it was apparently exposed so dramatically in 2017? My answer is, yes.

The 30 second buffer as never been a secret. Deterrant effect? Nope. For ANYTHING to have a deterrant effect you must first have a person making a reasoned/rational choice between two possible actions, considering outcomes (benefit vs consequence). That is seldom what is occurring in a police misconduct case, and it certainly wasn't in the Baltimore case. I'm reluctant to delve deeper into this case as an example, because it is not Florida and does not involve review boards.

Is that not why laws are passed that make it illegal to rob a bank, with consequences for that act? Yes, laws provide consequences, and also limit them. There is no consequence a review board can impart that the existing laws (assisted by the SEVEN avenues/levels of recourse above) don't already cover. A review board does not have any magical powers to find things that get "swept under the rug" or "slip through the cracks". It is a bunch of amateurs thrown into a conference room to impart their complete ignorance and biases as they Monday Morning quarterback the professionals

I'd bet it's because the Police Unions are pissed their members are being caught.
You clearly have no idea, do you. What are you basing this on? You're alleged "friends" who are cops? Ask one of them. I don't know a single cop who gets "pissed" when someone gets held accountable for bad behavior. We are disappointed and embarrased, because it reflects badly upon all of us, and we literally want to string them up by the balls for doing stupid ---- that destroys public confidence and makes everyone's job harder.

It just feels like a constant stream of bad behavior on the part of cops. For instance:

An officer responding to a domestic violence call arrested a woman's boyfriend, then went back to the scene, took off his body camera and touched her inappropriately, Florida authorities said. John Burgos, 35, is the 15th employee of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office to be arrested this year, according to reporting from The Florida Times-Union and WJXT.

You noted that 15 Jacksonville employees were arrested. Jacksonville doesn't have a Civilian Review Board, which means those investigations were conducted by police, and officers were held accountable without the involvement of a Civilian Review Board. That officer (Burgos) was arrested, fired and abandoned by the Police Union, as he should have been. He will probably do prison time. As for the body camera, not sure why he removed it, as opposed to just not turning it on. (I have a theory).

The only thing Citizens Review Panels add to the process is a whole new level or ignorance, sensationalism and politics. They are either a rubber stamp or a witch hunt, depending on the political platform of the POLITICIAN who appoints its members.

#15 Sunshine Law used to be something we were very proud of in Florida. It is toothless now. Limping along at best. DeSantis and his cronies have been busy killing it slowly

What provisions of the Sunshine Law have been repealed in recent years to make it "toothless"? Sincere question.

#20 Your example is from Baltimore, 8 years ago and had nothing to do with a Civilian Review Board. A recent Florida case may be more pertinent to the discussion.

More to the point, can either of you point to a case where a Florida Civilian Review Board actually uncovered undisclosed information, pierced the "blue wall of silence" or otherwise caused an officer to be held accountable that would not have been without their oversight?

Methane doesn't bleed out into space. It converts to CO2

I got the name, wrong, the state organization is called the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission

First of all, I have said this before, the "Blue Wall of Silence" is mostly TV and Movie fiction. In real life, good cops don't want to work around bad cops. We depend on each other to stay alive, uninjured and out of trouble. When we identify a "bad apple" in the barrel, we want him (or her) gone. Cops rat each other out all the time. That is how most misconduct is exposed, through IN-ternal complaints. When these kinds of stories come out, we are all embarrassed and upset, because it reflects on the entire profession.

Secondly, Municipal police chiefs are appointed and answer to an elected mayor as well as a city council which often includes a public safely oversight committee. Elected county sheriffs answer directly to their constituencies, and a county commission level oversight often exists as well.

Thirdly, the State Attorneys Office overseas investigations of police officers whenever a crime is alleged

Fourthly, FDLE and FHP often step in or are called in to take over an investigation whenever local police are implicated

Fifthly the Bureau of Criminal Justice Standards in Tallahassee reviews all citizen complaints at the state level and acts to strip officers of their certifications

Sixthly the DOJ acts at the federal level to investigate local law enforcement whenever a violation of rights is alleged

Seventhly, Florida has a broad sunshine law. Nearly all governmental records are open to public inspection and review. This includes citizen complaints, officers training and work history, investigations of misconduct, reports written, calls for service, body camera footage, written reports, radio transmissions, emails, texts messages, etc. Journalists, the ACLU and other citizens groups make frequent use of these resources.

So yeah......that is not enough, what we REALLY need is to select a group of random hairdressers, computer programmers, pet groomers, teachers, community organizers, cashiers etc..... to investigate and apply their "expertise" to make sure officers are held accountable. While they are convened, maybe we should get the same "citizens oversight committee" to review malpractice claims against doctors, determine the cause of airplane crashes, approve new medications and verify that buildings are constructed to meet hurricane codes!

Yes, corruption and bad groups of cops exist, but it is the exception not the norm. Citizen oversight committees are not the answer. If the seven levels of oversight described above can't root it out, a group of regular folks meeting at the community library once a month isn't going to break the case.

What on earth gives you the idea there is no oversight from the community?

Florida has 67 counties. Desantis won 62 of them. I'm guessing your convention was on,one of the other 5?

Yuppie white dude from Texas riding the A4, (no way he lives on that bus route) Claims he was on his way to the Anacostia library. (Which would require a several block walk through THE most dangerous neighborhood in DC) Nope. Something is off about this story.

"I agree it is fitting that Obama was polite at Carter's funeral, I don't believe there is snowballs chanch in hell that DonOLD will ever call Obama at "a critical moment for America""

Gal, please note I said the opposite of that. I said if Obama calls, Trump will pick up the phone. If that gives Obamaan opportunity to influence Trump during a "critical moment for America" then it is worth it. Obama is unselfish enough to realize that.

One of the things I have always admired about Obama was his willingness to talk to our enemies. Some insight:

#12 Yep, insurance company says don't use out of network providers. I was u def anesthesia, what was I supposed to do, write "no out of network providers" on my back with a sharpie? If I was capable of that I wouldn't need back surgery.

Thank you Chuffy, perhaps I went too far also. Often it is assumed that because I am openly critical of certain policies on one side of the aisle, I support certain policies on the other side. I have the misfortune of being quite liberal on some topics and quite conservative on others. For the record, I am supportive of "sensible gun laws", but not convinced the proposals I have seen will do much to prevent mass shootings. (As an example, the changes to CT law lauded in the link below would not have stopped Adam Lanza).

Chhuffy,
I'm not going to continue to take this thread off topic. Suffice it to say that you have deliberately mischaracterized my viewpoints and assigned positions to me that I do not hold. Your strawman is duly noted.

He is not going to be there and they are not going to lock him up.

Mixed feelings on this. I have had to fight tooth and nail to correct medical billing errors, so I am glad that the next time a collector calls about a particular bill that is incorrect, I can tell them to pack sand without it showing up on my credit report. On the other hand, if we take away all consequences for not paying medical bills, some folks who can pay just won't bother, and that will ultimately raise costs for the rest of us who do pay our bills.

I don't know the details, but almost EVERY government agency EVERYWHERE is loaded with waste and mismanagement. It takes a lot of courage to reduce budgets, few politicians can bear the onslaught of this type of cherry picking attack. That is why government budgets rise, and rise, and rise. I'm sure she "took food from the mouths of babies" also. I don't envy her having to deal with this disaster and I don't blame her one bit for walking off the stage when he was asked about the budget cuts.

"But guided by my conscience and my experience as a public defender, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Vice President, and now President, I am more convinced than ever that we must stop the use of the death penalty at the federal level." - Biden

Unless the dude is really, really really bad. - Biden

So I caught the headline and looked for the "rest of the story" to try to figure out why this generated about 500 news stories.

My first impression is that he looked very uncomfortable being up in front of people and cameras. The fact that his wife had to physically position him to face the cameras and his hanging head made me think he could be suffering from dementia or other mental impairment. Of course maybe he just doesn't like her and didn't want to shake her hand. Slow news day I guess.

#33 Chuffy,
I do care about you and your family. And I do reject DJT and elements of BOTH parties. I believe a multi-party system is essential for balance. I am not a Republican, but I can't "join you" when you post the kind of hyperbolic, over the top rhetoric like this:

Repubicans support, if not enthusiastically cheer, the following, openly:

Rape, sexual assault and men beating up women.
Six year olds getting shot in the face.
Adultery.
Child abuse.
Treason.
Fascism.
White Supremacists.
Religious theocracy.
Anti-science stupidity.

It's a longer list, but all of those things are the core beliefs of Repubicans. They love all of it.

I really don't see the point of piling on to the endless threads here that are filled with that kind of divisive content to prove some sort of fealty. I prefer to stick with factual posts from my area of expertise, and call out false or misleading stories. Disrupting false narratives makes people uncomfortable. Is it more comfortable for you to believe that roughly 50% of Americans support (if not enthusiastically cheer) six year olds getting shot in the face?

So that was my response to your "if you really cared about my family" comment. My work has exposed me to a very diverse population and my concern for other people is not conditional on political beliefs. I sincerely believe that most people are decent and caring, they just disagree on how to make the world a better place. I hope you and your family continue to stay safe. My family members are between the Sunset and Eaton fires and keeping watch. Air quality is terrible, but they are essential workers and can't leave. They feel very fortunate to be safe.

You too OCU.

Chuffy,
Prayers to you and your family. One of my kids is a mile outside of the evac zone for the Eaton fire, so we are all watching closely. They had 50-60 mph winds last night They are packed and ready to leave at a moments notice, but now there is another fire in the Hollywood Hills threatening their intended destination. There is really no safe direction. Scary stuff.

I'm hearing folks scoff and say this is no different from what we go through in hurricanes. There is no comparison.. In a hurricane you can hunker down in relative safety inside a well built structure. There is no escaping fire when it comes for you.

Please check in and let us know how you are doing.

Hmmmm? Where did I ever do that?