Part of the conversation that interested me, btw, is that of Cultural Christians... those who live by Jesus' parables of morals and ethics without identifying as believers.

Those sayings only seem like common sense to them.

"I mean, I think basically that most of
us in this country are cultural
Christians just instinctively.

Uh, and I
think there is no one who's more
culturally Christian than the atheist...

who says, "I don't need some, you know,
bronze age sky [music] fairy telling me
how to behave because I just know how to
behave. I'm a good person.

I don't need
the Bible to tell me to care for the
weak and the poor and the refugee...
manifesting the fact that they are the
result of centuries worth of biblical
weathering.

So in a sense, [applause]
in a sense to be a cultural Christian is
still to believe stuff.

It's still to believe stuff that to say
a Roman, a pre-Christian Roman would
have seemed mad and not at all
self-evident."

- Tom Holland (about 5 mins in)

(you'll need to restart the link in #1... my Editor sucks)

#4

If they did, they didn't do a very good job, as Josephus is more often used as not proof than proof, as there are some caveats in his work due to poor or intentionally dishonest scribes.

I've never heard it before, but this conspiracy canard apparently originates in one place and time, a 2005 book.

- The Bible was written centuries later by people who realized it was a great way to control others.

Decades later... Paul within one or two, the rest within 2 to 4.

What did you think of secular historian Tom Holland's take on cultural Christianity?

#8, 9

And how would you know any of that? I mean, you haven't even watched the short vid at the thread link, much less studied the subject.

One reason I like to study the findings of people like Tom Holland is that he has no dog in the fight; he's a scholar of ancient history known for his work on Muhammad, whose story WAS written 2 centuries later, and his work on Augustus Caesar.

Also NT Wright, who was a well-regarded Prof of ancient history before he was Oxford's NT scholar.

#10

"Smith concludes that Allegro's mushroom hypothesis was informed by many trends in twentieth-century mycological study, alongside a desire to discredit Christianity from its inception."

"Why Hitler Hated Christianity | Tom Holland

The idea that "there is no Jew or Greek" - that all people are created with inherent dignity - conflicted and destroyed Hitler's ideal of strength and classical civilization."

The Name of the Rose, the book, and the movie with Sean Connery... were excellent.

"Love is the strongest force in the universe

James Talarico takes questions at a town hall in Laredo, Texas"

- nobody cares about?

There are several Christians here, including at last check the site owner.

What is it with you whining about what other people post here, just because you disagree with it?

This thread post is from a top secular scholar of ancient history, who says the the historic person with the greatest influence on our history and culture is JC.

Feel free to post why you disagree with that... although that would require actually knowing what Tom Holland's evidence is.

- "a dog in this fight".

Referred to a renowned secular historian not letting his own bias affect his conclusions on the evidence he sees.

- the power of Love.

Why I included #15.

- you seem very concerned with the validity of your faith

Assigning motive in argument is... well, it's just sad.

- what possible reason is there to care about this argument?

A 'scientist' who eques finding factual evidence? OK, that's funny.

- meaningless to me.

What the blind man said about the elephant.

One supposes that everything that's meaningless to you must also needs be meaningless to others. But then, yours in the only opinion that counts, right?

It's almost like you are very concerned with the validity of your thinking. As apparently you should be.

- feel the need to describe people in that manner.

It's OK... Trumpers don't believe 99 percent of Climate Scientists and you avoid expert opinion. Got it.

- I know the same way you know.
I believe it to be true.
Thats the magic of religion.

You seem to be the magical thinker here; I'm quoting a secular historian, and you are trusting your fee fees.

- between 12 and 16 years old.

What was the age of marriage for women in most cultures 2000 years ago?

"Around 2,000 years ago, the typical age of marriage for women in many ancient societies, particularly within the Mediterranean and Roman world, was shortly after puberty, generally between 12 and 15 years old.

While 12 was often the legal minimum, middle-class girls typically married in their mid-to-late teens, whereas elite, arranged marriages often occurred as early as 12."

#27

The thread vid (w transcript) is by a secular scholar of ancient history, and guess what? The 'magic of religion' is never mentioned.

But you already KNOW EVERYTHING, so why would you ever learn anything?

You prolly don't even know that 'faith' isn't a religious word.

AND both of you are afraid to even read or hear what the renowned secular scholar of ancient history, and best selling author, has to say.

Just like any Trumper avoids any information that might possibly differ from what they already believe.

- Bronze Age goat herder myths beyond simple faith.

Aww... the tawdry old standards. You need some new material... and obviously prefer reading Wiki rather than the thread link, or even the Except from #3, which I see you are definitely still afraid to do.

Here, I'll help:

"I think there is no one who's more
culturally Christian than the atheist...

who says, "I don't need some, you know,
bronze age sky [music] fairy telling me
how to behave because I just know how to
behave. I'm a good person.

I don't need the Bible to tell me to care for the
weak and the poor and the refugee...

... manifesting the fact that they are the
result of centuries worth of biblical
weathering." - Tom Holland

or perhaps you need someone to explain the concept of a 'Cultural Christian' to you.

- en.wikipedia.org(author)

Um... not the Actor Tom Holland.

"Tom Holland is an English historian and author who, while not identifying as a traditional Christian believer, argues that Western morality, secularism, and human rights are profoundly shaped by Christian, particularly Catholic, history. His 2019 book, Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind, explores this foundational influence."

#35

- Jesus didn't write the Bible,

If you ever find someone who said he did, you'll be the first.

- religion is a means of controlling people by manipulating them.

Yes, it can be used that way, just as nuclear power can be used for bombs or home energy, for evil or for good.

Perhaps you need to clear your mind with a twink or two?

See if JPW will volunteer!

(although I cannot attest to his, um, 'twinkiness', you could ask BillJohson.)

#38

Which is why when we have THE expert scholar on people like Muhammed, who's story WAS written 200 years later, or Augustus Caesar, a contemporary of JC... it might be wise to hear out his analysis.

- One early version of the Bible taught that Lilith was Adam's first wife, not Eve.

That's a much later version:

"The legend of Lilith as Adam's first wife, created from dust alongside him before Eve, originates from medieval Jewish folklore"specifically the 8th"10th century text Alphabet of Ben Sira"rather than early versions of the canonical Bible.

While Lilith is not in the Bible as a human, she is sometimes interpreted from a single mention of a night creature in Isaiah 34:14, though she was traditionally understood in literature as a demon."

I'll have to check out the Beethoven Letters, never even heard of that one. (he may not have heard them, either!)

Thanks!

- Plagiarism was more than sufficient.

Of which particular plagiarism do you speak?

(and don't Monkee around!)

#45 |

Which is pretty much exactly Holland's point, per the quote in #3.

The world was never the same after the Sermon on the Mount, and the other sayings of Yeshua, no matter what else did or did not happen in the stories.

The short vid in the thread link covers that more thoroughly; nothing else matters as far as Western Culture is concerned than that his message was received, and believers or not... atheists make some of the best Cultural Christians, as they were, as the author puts it, 'weathered by centuries' of the at least attempted implementation of those messages.

#49

One supposes you've never made a post that while you were writing it had already been answered... sounds like magic!

#51

Dominion isn't considered a groudbreaking book because the author has nothing new to say.

His point is the dramatic influence that the sayings of one obscure rabbi have had in shaping Western Culture... including atheists.

Which is much more than most have said about the historical Jesus. And which is no empty sack.

Of course, it may not be what Bluto wants hear, but there we are.

And if the words and actions of this obscure figure could have such profound influence on Western Civilization, might it not lend credence to much else of what he said and did?

But hey, I'm sure that pretending that neurons can create thoughts will be just as useful.

Or relying on the circular logic of saying that, "miracles can't happen, and anyone who says they can happen is a false reporter, because miracles can't happen... ad infinitum.

#54

Well, I just don't know who to believe on ancient history, the OT scholar and the ancient history NT scholar... or Lab Boy.

- without anything but desire or wishful thinking to warrant it.

See, that's the thing.... scholars like Holland, an expert on Muhammed, Augustus Caesar, and now Yeshua, would be blasted and buried by critics if they were dealing in wishful thinking.

As much as you deny it, he's one of the best ancient scholars we have, with facts and documents galore to prove it.

Your best effort is, "Nu-uh!".

His work is all facts and evidence... you may not have noticed in your zeal to be relevant to the conversation, but he doesn't address anything supernatural at all.

His point is still summed up in #3, if you get over your fear of being exposed to the facts.

#58

I see you are still so stuck in the mud of belief or disbelief that you miss the entire point of a scholarly book about the genesis of Western Culture being traced back to a source that appears to frighten you.

Perhaps you'll grow out of it.

btw, if JPW is your initials, there is a good chance that your first name (your 'Christian name') originates in scripture.... you might want to go out and change it.