Florida has 67 counties. Desantis won 62 of them. I'm guessing your convention was on,one of the other 5?

What on earth gives you the idea there is no oversight from the community?

First of all, I have said this before, the "Blue Wall of Silence" is mostly TV and Movie fiction. In real life, good cops don't want to work around bad cops. We depend on each other to stay alive, uninjured and out of trouble. When we identify a "bad apple" in the barrel, we want him (or her) gone. Cops rat each other out all the time. That is how most misconduct is exposed, through IN-ternal complaints. When these kinds of stories come out, we are all embarrassed and upset, because it reflects on the entire profession.

Secondly, Municipal police chiefs are appointed and answer to an elected mayor as well as a city council which often includes a public safely oversight committee. Elected county sheriffs answer directly to their constituencies, and a county commission level oversight often exists as well.

Thirdly, the State Attorneys Office overseas investigations of police officers whenever a crime is alleged

Fourthly, FDLE and FHP often step in or are called in to take over an investigation whenever local police are implicated

Fifthly the Bureau of Criminal Justice Standards in Tallahassee reviews all citizen complaints at the state level and acts to strip officers of their certifications

Sixthly the DOJ acts at the federal level to investigate local law enforcement whenever a violation of rights is alleged

Seventhly, Florida has a broad sunshine law. Nearly all governmental records are open to public inspection and review. This includes citizen complaints, officers training and work history, investigations of misconduct, reports written, calls for service, body camera footage, written reports, radio transmissions, emails, texts messages, etc. Journalists, the ACLU and other citizens groups make frequent use of these resources.

So yeah......that is not enough, what we REALLY need is to select a group of random hairdressers, computer programmers, pet groomers, teachers, community organizers, cashiers etc..... to investigate and apply their "expertise" to make sure officers are held accountable. While they are convened, maybe we should get the same "citizens oversight committee" to review malpractice claims against doctors, determine the cause of airplane crashes, approve new medications and verify that buildings are constructed to meet hurricane codes!

Yes, corruption and bad groups of cops exist, but it is the exception not the norm. Citizen oversight committees are not the answer. If the seven levels of oversight described above can't root it out, a group of regular folks meeting at the community library once a month isn't going to break the case.

I got the name, wrong, the state organization is called the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission

#15 Sunshine Law used to be something we were very proud of in Florida. It is toothless now. Limping along at best. DeSantis and his cronies have been busy killing it slowly

What provisions of the Sunshine Law have been repealed in recent years to make it "toothless"? Sincere question.

#20 Your example is from Baltimore, 8 years ago and had nothing to do with a Civilian Review Board. A recent Florida case may be more pertinent to the discussion.

More to the point, can either of you point to a case where a Florida Civilian Review Board actually uncovered undisclosed information, pierced the "blue wall of silence" or otherwise caused an officer to be held accountable that would not have been without their oversight?

#22 And do the police now act differently, aware of that 30-second buffer that the body-cam has, since it was apparently exposed so dramatically in 2017? My answer is, yes.

The 30 second buffer as never been a secret. Deterrant effect? Nope. For ANYTHING to have a deterrant effect you must first have a person making a reasoned/rational choice between two possible actions, considering outcomes (benefit vs consequence). That is seldom what is occurring in a police misconduct case, and it certainly wasn't in the Baltimore case. I'm reluctant to delve deeper into this case as an example, because it is not Florida and does not involve review boards.

Is that not why laws are passed that make it illegal to rob a bank, with consequences for that act? Yes, laws provide consequences, and also limit them. There is no consequence a review board can impart that the existing laws (assisted by the SEVEN avenues/levels of recourse above) don't already cover. A review board does not have any magical powers to find things that get "swept under the rug" or "slip through the cracks". It is a bunch of amateurs thrown into a conference room to impart their complete ignorance and biases as they Monday Morning quarterback the professionals

I'd bet it's because the Police Unions are pissed their members are being caught.
You clearly have no idea, do you. What are you basing this on? You're alleged "friends" who are cops? Ask one of them. I don't know a single cop who gets "pissed" when someone gets held accountable for bad behavior. We are disappointed and embarrased, because it reflects badly upon all of us, and we literally want to string them up by the balls for doing stupid ---- that destroys public confidence and makes everyone's job harder.

It just feels like a constant stream of bad behavior on the part of cops. For instance:

An officer responding to a domestic violence call arrested a woman's boyfriend, then went back to the scene, took off his body camera and touched her inappropriately, Florida authorities said. John Burgos, 35, is the 15th employee of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office to be arrested this year, according to reporting from The Florida Times-Union and WJXT.

You noted that 15 Jacksonville employees were arrested. Jacksonville doesn't have a Civilian Review Board, which means those investigations were conducted by police, and officers were held accountable without the involvement of a Civilian Review Board. That officer (Burgos) was arrested, fired and abandoned by the Police Union, as he should have been. He will probably do prison time. As for the body camera, not sure why he removed it, as opposed to just not turning it on. (I have a theory).

The only thing Citizens Review Panels add to the process is a whole new level or ignorance, sensationalism and politics. They are either a rubber stamp or a witch hunt, depending on the political platform of the POLITICIAN who appoints its members.

Lampy,
I am still open to discuss the "Blue Wall of Silence" but would need you to present an example in Florida, and more specifically, one that was not adequately investigated by the current systems I described above.

Deterrent effect is often misunderstood by rational people who project their own reasonable thought patterns on others. Most criminals (including police officers who commit criminal acts) are not doing a rational risk/reward analysis prior to committing an act. They often lack impulse control and foresight.

For example, in the cases mentioned above, the potential consequences (loss of employment, incarceration) obviously GREATLY outweigh the potential reward (getting an "atta boy" for a drug arrest, getting laid). No rational person would take those odds. An irrational person isn't deterred.

#24
Florida law limits costs that can be assessed to those requesting records to actual costs of duplication. If this has changed, I'd be right there with you raising hell about it. Not sure where you are, here is an example of fees in Bocaink, which look pretty reasonable to me.

Yav,
Interesting that you have a sibling who is an officer, considering that most of your comments of police officers seems to depict them as lacking in basic humanity. Do you have a good relationship with your sibling? Is your sibling still employed in law enforcement, or formerly? These things may color your impression, for example, if (and I said IF) your impressions of police work comes from a single source sibling you do not get along with, that would explain a lot about your general ACAB attitude.

I have had police family members, worked for five different law enforcement agencies (federal, municipal and corrections) and know hundreds of police officers well. I know the vast majority of them are good, hard working, selfless people who would put their own lives on the line to save a junkie. I also know a very, very small minority of them are --------- who need to go, and the the good officers REALLY want to see the --------- gone. If your sibling is telling you something different, I suspect that he/she was one of that minority, or was fired/terminated and is disgruntled/bitter. There are lots of those guys out there, and they generally only tell one side of their story.

I am retired. I have no dog in this fight, and certainly have nothing to gain by being "disingenuous" on an anonymous message board. I speak from my experiences. You can choose to believe me, or not.

I will get to the public records in another post.

As far as public records requests, I have been on both sides of that issue. As a detective, I was required to respond to requests, which meant making copies of reports/notes, redacting them for information that was protected by law, etc. Some of the frustrations that occured (from requestors perspective): Information that could compromise an ongoing investigation is protected, indefinately in an unsolved case, and there are additional limitations due to Marsys law and juvenile issues. I spent a lot of time making redactions. There are also rules concerning body camera footage taken in locations where there is an expectation of privacy, like inside homes. This all takes time, and sometimes multiple departments to fulfil a single request, for example, "Everything you have concerning the murder of John Jones" is going to take a lot longer than "The investigative reports and detective notes from the homicide file"

Also, I could not legally release reports that I was not custodian of. For example, I once had a Rescue Run report in my file, which was included in the table of contents and referred to in my report. An attorney was raising hell wanting that report, and I had to tell him to get it from the Fire Department. The Fire Department refused to provide it because it contained HIPAA info.

I can't speak for other organizations, but our public records procedures were a well oiled machine, and costs were reasonable. I was required to document my time to the minute, though my department never actually billed for labor spent on public records requests unless they became excessive/abusive. (I know this because the paid receipt went into the file). By excessive/abusive, I mean frivolous requests that were literally intended to harass and create endless work for no apparent purpose, and there was one local activist who liked to do that for sport.

From the other side of it I have been very involved locally in growth management and environmental issues. I have made lots and lots of public records requests. I have gotten lots of pushback, mostly from front desk gatekeepers in departments that aren't accustomed to requests. One of the most frustrating things is that the law does not require a requestor to identify themselves, and I wanted my requests to remain confidential. I was up against powerful developers who would not hesitate to contact my chain of command and try to ---- with my career to intimidate me into stepping back. Almost every time, the gatekeepers would require me to leave my name and number to have someone call me. This was impossible to do without revealing my identity, so I visiting those offices repeatedly in person and paid with cash. Some departments refused to accept cash so I had to get money orders. Eventually, I learned more about the process and carried copies of relevant statutes to present, and as I got more familiar with the way departmental records were organized, I was able to make my requests more targeted ad cost effective. Now, most of what I spent weeks trying to get is available free online, so that is helpful.

Don't even get me started on California. As executor of an estate I spent more than $8000 on public records requests, many of which I had to fight tooth and nail to get. They refused to release records to me because my name wasn't on them. They couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that as Executor, I stepped into the shoes of the deceased and was legally entitled to any and all records that the deceased was entitled to. They wanted a subpoeana for everything, then denied the subpoenas.

Triggered yav?

#33 - I get along extremely well with my sibling. You sure had to make a lot of assumptions to rationalize your narrative.

Assumptions? You missed the "I (and I said IF") part? The IF matters. Unless you are triggered.

Glad to hear you get along well with your sibling. You never answered whether they are a current or former cop, but I will make an "assumption" that he/she is "one of the good ones" (of which you seem to think are few). Ask him or her if they agree with my "rationalized narrative". I'd love to hear his/her take on it. This one:

I know the vast majority of them are good, hard working, selfless people who would put their own lives on the line to save a junkie. I also know a very, very small minority of them are --------- who need to go, and the the good officers REALLY want to see the --------- gone.

#35 | Posted by YAV at 2025-01-14 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

BTW - you come across as one of those ---------, Miranda7. Just so you know.

So by believing that most cops are good people, *I* am a -------- who is not? Sounds like a weirdly convoluted way to look at things. To be one of the good cops, you have to believe the ACAB narrative?

Getting public records in Florida increasingly takes waiting months, shelling out hundreds if not thousands of dollars, hiring a lawyer and in one recent case even having the police called.

#37 | Posted by YAV at 2025-01-14 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

You ignored that after lying and making accusations about my sibling and myself. You may go ---- yourself now."

#38 | Posted by YAV at 2025-01-14 01:43 PM | Reply | Flag:
Ignored? You also apparently didn't bother to read my last line where I told you I would get to the public records in another post. While you were telling me to go ---- myself, I was responding to that. See #39.

Also, what specifically do you think I lied about? Or is that just a spurious insult?

Yav,
You are the one who accused me of "ignoring" your question, which I in fact answered in quite a lot of detail in a separate post, AS PROMISED.
You believe I am a POS for not agreeing with your ACAB narrative
You have dismissed my personal experience as "irrelevant" with no actual rebuttal or facts, none of the No answers to the questions I have posed.

Yes, I think you are triggered, because you are all emotion, bitter ad hominem attacks and no facts, no ""everything else" you claim invalidates my personal experience.

"I also know a very, very small minority of them are --------- who need to go, and the the good officers REALLY want to see the --------- gone."

I don't doubt you may have some insight.

But for such a "very small minority" you have to admit they sure do seem to grab an awful lot of headlines. And not in a "good officer" way.

#34 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-01-14 12:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

I hear what you are saying, but do you understand that the "very small minority" of any group seems to "grab an awful lot of headlines"? For example

A very small minority of teachers grab the headlines for having sexual relationships with their students (rape). And not in a "good teacher" kind of way. But I don't see anyone disputing that the vast majority of teachers are good people.

There aren't a lot of "good cop" stories grabbing the headlines because "bad cop" stories get more clicks. Same thing with teachers. I recall a day when our local newspaper had a cover story spread on a relatively minor police involved car crash, complete with a detailed analysis of every police involved accident that year. Buried on page 3 was a single paragraph about a daring ocean rescue the same day, where a police officer dangled from the skids of a helicopter in high winds over rough waters to pull a drowning woman to safety.

The media controls the narrative, and you are letting it control you when you make judgements based on what grabs "an awful lot of headlines". Take a moment and look for the actual statistics, i.e., allegations of misconduct as a percentage of calls for service, arrested officers as a percentage of total officers, etc. You will find that supports my "narrative".

As an example of the "awful lot of headlines" trap, I googled "Jimmy Carter funeral" a few days ago. There were seemingly endless headlines about the interactions between the current and former presidents and vice presidents at Jimmy Carters funeral. Who smiled, who didn't, pundit reactions to the same. Far fewer, and further down the search results were stories about the speakers who eulogized him, or Jimmy Carter's family or accomplishments. So I suppose "Who snubbed who" was what was most important thing?

#40 Nothing you said has anything to do with what's going on in Florida. Just so you know. Amazing how much you typed justifying and rationalizing something you know nothing about.

WTF? Literally EVERYTHING I typed in that post was from my first hand experience in Florida, with the exception of the short paragraph about California. Whereas almost EVERYTHING you typed was vague second hand clams with no attempt to provide factual support. You do you.