Dartmouth Hoops Players Vote to Join Local Union

Wednesday, March 06, 2024

The Dartmouth men's basketball team voted 13-2 Tuesday to join its local service employees union, marking the first time any group of college athletes has taken a public action as employees of their school and potentially setting a precedent that could significantly alter the business of college sports.

Posted by LampLighter at 06:30 PM | 58 COMMENTS | permalink | Comment on This Entry |

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... The Dartmouth players' effort is one of several unfolding legal challenges to the NCAA's long-held principle that college athletes are not professionals. NCAA president Charlie Baker told ESPN in a recent interview that he thinks many colleges want to provide more benefits to their athletes, but neither the schools nor most of the players he asked wanted to be considered employees. ...

#1 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-03-06 12:15 PM | Reply

Why shouldn't college athletes be considered employees?

The work they do for the school on the playing field (or court) is then sold by the school to those who give money to the school.

#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-03-06 12:17 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Be really interesting to see how this plays out in The South.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-06 12:18 PM | Reply

@#3 ... Be really interesting to see how this plays out in The South. ...

Yes it will. But that progression will involve so many things.

Among them, the South seems to have a history of being OK with forced labor.

So I doubt if they will allow such a revolt of the athletes.

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-03-06 07:59 PM | Reply

Dartmouth????

Bwahaha.

#5 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2024-03-06 10:27 PM | Reply

Do they pay union dues, and if so to whom? And what is the point? If they are considered employees, I'm sure the IRS will be involved soon.

#6 | Posted by gasman21 at 2024-03-07 07:19 AM | Reply

College sports has been ruined by the transfer portal and NIL money. Remember the quaint old days when on Senior Night fans would bid fond farewell to athletes who had competed so hard for four years for the old alma mater? Pretty much gone now, with athletes transferring hither and yon after a year, dissatisfied with lack of playing time, lack of money for appearing in car commercials, feeling slighted by the coach or fans, or any of a thousand million other reasons. As for academics, well, who cares? Spending time at 2-3 colleges for 4-5 years provides a perception that athletes don't really care about getting an education and a college degree because, well, they're going to be in the NBA/NFL/MLB since so many people have told them such. A sad state of affairs...

#7 | Posted by catdog at 2024-03-07 09:13 AM | Reply

-Why shouldn't college athletes be considered employees?

There are a lot of reasons.

Benefits
work place rules
virtually all laws and regulations that apply to "employees" would apply to college athletes.

I have always understood why the Universities object to employing them to play sports.

It's a very slippery slope.

This is why NIL is structured the way it is....to compensate athletes without formally classifying them as employees.

#8 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 10:01 AM | Reply

"It's a very slippery slope."

Why?

What's at the bottom of the hill that we should be afraid of.

Just tell us, instead of fear mongering us.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 12:09 PM | Reply

OHSA
overtime
work comp
exempt vs non-exempt
employment discrimination/termination rules
labor union
injuries
non-performance
and a thousand other items I haven't thought of.....

#10 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 12:15 PM | Reply

"What's at the bottom of the hill that we should be afraid of."

An influx of teenagers who'd vote to give up health insurance at the next contract negotiation.

#11 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-03-07 12:16 PM | Reply

Benefits!! should have been first on my list.

#12 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 12:17 PM | Reply

drudge.com

Now imagine that issue with athletes now being employees.

If we want to compensate athletes then okay.....but expect more and more blow back from Universities over deeming them employees.

#13 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 12:20 PM | Reply

Your list is why they SHOULD be treated as employees. Right now schools are make millions if not billions (collectively). The people making the actual money get pittance are treated like chattel and are tossed aside if they have life altering injuries

#14 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 12:37 PM | Reply

I went to colledge fer sports mah dugree is in dribblin' and thowin' BALLS

#15 | Posted by libs_of_dr at 2024-03-07 12:44 PM | Reply

Pittance and "chattel....you don't think NIL money remedies that?

why go to employment status?

when is a student athlete a student and an athlete? meaning...can you separate the 2?

and if you can't...then aren't all students employees?

Your employment is narrowed to the "scope" and "in the course of" your employment.

Do that with a soccer player who is attending a study hour. Falls on the way into the athletic building.

in the course of employment?

#16 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 12:44 PM | Reply

Consider for a moment that approximately 1.3 million student athletes are injured every year on the field.

Who pays for their healthcare? Them or their families.

Not the schools who are benefiting from their labor.

If the student/athletes were employees workman's compensation laws would apply.

Get injured on the job? Your employer is liable for your healthcare.

Get injured on the field? You pay for your healthcare.

Get injured on the job? Who was making profit off your labor? Your employer and you to a lesser extent through salary.

Get injured on the field? Who was making profit off your labor? The school and MAYBE you if you received a scholarship.

#17 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 12:45 PM | Reply

-If the student/athletes were employees workman's compensation laws would apply.

and you believe that's a more efficient system to pay for that healthcare than how it's being paid for now?

#18 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 12:52 PM | Reply

I am fine with providing logical modifications to employment laws to address a seemingly unique situation, but the way it is now is manifestly unjust.

The NIL only handles a portion of the student-athlete population

#19 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 12:53 PM | Reply

Do that with a soccer player who is attending a study hour. Falls on the way into the athletic building.
in the course of employment?
#16 | POSTED BY EBERLY

So the thing you're really worried about, at the bottom of that slippery slope is... having to pay insurance claims related to On The Job Injury.
Well, that tracks with being an insurance salesman. Can't fault that logic. But I do think it's a pretty narrow view of the actual issues here.

You should see this as an opportunity to sell insurance to the schools, though, if I understand how selling insurance to people who need insurance works. No?

#20 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 12:56 PM | Reply

-If the student/athletes were employees workman's compensation laws would apply.
and you believe that's a more efficient system to pay for that healthcare than how it's being paid for now?
#18 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Player x plays Division 1 football for a couple of years. Player x suffers debilitating injury causing years long healthcare, rehabilitation, multiple surgeries.

Why should the family of player x be burdened with the cost when the school was profiting off his labor?

#21 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 12:56 PM | Reply

-If the student/athletes were employees workman's compensation laws would apply.

And that's a slippery slope all by itself.

it's a long list.

and it's a huge cost.

a cost the university will send back where?

You are just creating more problems...while not really solving any.

#22 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 12:58 PM | Reply

College athletes are REQUIRED to spend up to 40 hours per week on training for their sport. Is that not a job?

Shouldn't college athletes receive protection from that type of exploitation, (which is above and beyond their alleged primary role as student, mind you).

#23 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 12:59 PM | Reply

Maybe colleges shouldn't be in the minor league sports business at all.

#24 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:00 PM | Reply

the best argument you're making is to have a single payer health care system which would remove the barriers and obstacles currently in place.

You're focused on the greedy evil PUBLIC University (not a private employer, BTW)

That greedy evil public university will just make your kid pay a higher tuition bill to cover it.

problem solved?

#25 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:01 PM | Reply

"Pittance and "chattel....you don't think NIL money remedies that?"

You're saying NIL should replace pay.
Wow dude.
Who -- other than the already hugely famous -- is going to get more our of their NIL rights than they will out of a steady paycheck?

#26 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:03 PM | Reply

My solution would be to essentially eliminate college sports as it is. Develop minor league basketball and football leagues and funnel most of the 1.3 Billion they raise annually into those businesses. That way colleges can return to you know, educating.

#27 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:03 PM | Reply

-Shouldn't college athletes receive protection from that type of exploitation, (which is above and beyond their alleged primary role as student, mind you).

You're right....if we only had an organization that universities were compelled to answer to who would write rules regarding how student athletes are to be spending their time on their sport vs academics, maximum hours per week, and a host of other rules that universities are expected to follow.

Wait.....ever heard of this organization?

the NCAA?

web3.ncaa.org

#28 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:05 PM | Reply

"a cost the university will send back where?"

Maybe you could propose a NIL tax, to pay for insurance.
Tell your boss it was Snoofy's idea and cut me in for 15%.

#29 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:06 PM | Reply

-Who -- other than the already hugely famous -- is going to get more our of their NIL rights than they will out of a steady paycheck?

I don't see a lot of transparency on how much everyone is making through NIL.

Or maybe I'm not looking hard enough. But a lot of non famous athletes are getting $50K+

is that better than a steady paycheck or not?

Honestly? I don't know and I'm not saying one way or the other.

#30 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:08 PM | Reply

-Shouldn't college athletes receive protection from that type of exploitation, (which is above and beyond their alleged primary role as student, mind you).
You're right....if we only had an organization that universities were compelled to answer to who would write rules regarding how student athletes are to be spending their time on their sport vs academics, maximum hours per week, and a host of other rules that universities are expected to follow.
Wait.....ever heard of this organization?
the NCAA?
web3.ncaa.org
#28 | POSTED BY EBERLY

So, the entity that benefits from the student/athlete's labor (to the tune of $1.3 BILLION/year) is writing the rules of what the student/athletes can and cannot do. And the student/athletes have no collective bargaining power, since they are not employees.

Yeppppper, sounds like a free market capitalist solution to exploitation.

#31 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:11 PM | Reply

-Maybe colleges shouldn't be in the minor league sports business at all.

Fair point but boosters, university enrollment, corporate sponsors, merchants, etc....they are all stakeholders in the current system.

and ZERO of these stakeholders want athletes to be "employees".

Paid? absolutely....I mean they've been paying athletes forever....but it was illegal.

Now it's not.

#32 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:11 PM | Reply

"So, the entity that benefits from the student/athlete's labor (to the tune of $1.3 BILLION/year) is writing the rules of what the student/athletes can and cannot do. And the student/athletes have no collective bargaining power, since they are not employees.
Yeppppper, sounds like a free market capitalist solution to exploitation."

I'm not defending the system nor suggesting there isn't significant "exploitation".

I'm just pointing out the political and economic realities of trying to solve this problem by simply deeming student athletes employees.

#33 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:14 PM | Reply

and ZERO of these stakeholders want athletes to be "employees".

And why is that? Could it be those stakeholders are benefitting from the exploitation of the student/athletes?

An estimated 67% of former National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Division I athletes reported that they sustained a major injury during their athletic career, and 50% reported chronic injuries. Former athletes experienced increased degenerative changes in their joints and spine compared with nonathletes.

But who cares, amirite?

Lifetime of pain and medication and rehabilitation and surgeries, LONG after the colleges have forgotten who you are.

#34 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:15 PM | Reply

"My solution would be to essentially eliminate college sports as it is."

This makes the most sense to me as well.

Decouple them financially and administratively. The college team is simply an affiliate organization that bears the franchise logo of the university, but there's no direct connection between the "student" part of the student's life and the "athlete" part of the student's life.

This is also how sports work in most of the rest of the world. Children with promise get sent to special sports schools where their focus is on sports. Whereas in this country, children with promise get sent to regular schools, and their focus is still on sports, and to paper over the obvious deficiencies in that system we get people like Dexter Manley who graduated from Oklahoma State and could not read. So then the NCAA papers over that with Prop 42 which does nothing more than preventing talented but dumb athletes from ever having the chance that Dexter Manley got. And the NCAA laughs all the way to the bank.

Nick Saban out there making $11M coaching a team playing in a Not For Profit league, you'd have to be a Republican to think that's how Not For Profit should work.

#35 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:16 PM | Reply

"I'm just pointing out the political and economic realities of trying to solve this problem by simply deeming student athletes employees."

In case you don't know, because it sounds like you don't, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the students in 2021.

#36 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:16 PM | Reply

-And why is that? Could it be those stakeholders are benefitting from the exploitation of the student/athletes?

yes. It's no secret.

#37 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:17 PM | Reply

I'm just pointing out the political and economic realities of trying to solve this problem by simply deeming student athletes employees.

#33 | POSTED BY EBERLY

And how will change occur? By the exploited gaining sufficient political power to change the system and one effective way for that to be accomplished is for schools to bear the actual financial costs of student/athletes.

But you're right, American society has it's priorities completely out of whack, instead of protecting children and young adults we push the exploitation machine lower and lower into high school athletics and I am sure pre-HS travel sports.

Because people without lives need to live vicariously though sports so that they actually think they have meaning in their lives.

#38 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:18 PM | Reply

-My solution would be to essentially eliminate college sports as it is.

Good luck with that.

#39 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:19 PM | Reply

"I'm not defending the system nor suggesting there isn't significant "exploitation"."

^
You just said the NIL rights make up for any exploration.
Or as you put it, "exploitation" suggesting it's not really happening.

#40 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:20 PM | Reply

-And how will change occur?

It probably won't. the NIL thing was huge. Biggest change to occur in decades.

Let's see where this Dartmouth thing goes......I don't know.

The transfer portal thing coupled with NIL has really screwed things up. Players transferring at semester and playing immediately for another school.

#41 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:22 PM | Reply

@35 to say nothing about how athletics sucks the funds out of everything else. Few things disgust me more than seeing a HS with a multi-million dollar football field. Like where are your priorities? Instead of woke crt cancel culture dei, THAT is the threat to your students. Take that money and put it towards teachers and if football is a money making/profit driven scheme for the school, well that is just pathetic.

#42 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:22 PM | Reply

-Few things disgust me more than seeing a HS with a multi-million dollar football field. Like where are your priorities?

I agree. completely screwed up priorities.

#43 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:23 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Did Eb and I agree on something?

I have to go take a shower.

#44 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:24 PM | Reply

The transfer portal thing coupled with NIL has really screwed things up. Players transferring at semester and playing immediately for another school.
#41 | POSTED BY EBERLY

I absolutely agree. But it's a self-inflicted injury. When I was at San Diego State University we played some school in Florida. It's a stupid way to run a sports program -- unless the goal of the sports program is to be a developmental league for the pros. At which point, it really shouldn't be considered a Not For Profit operation any more.

#45 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:26 PM | Reply

we've only disagreed on the potential solutions to a problem we have both agreed exists.

#46 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:26 PM | Reply

enjoy your shower, though.

gotta run......

#47 | Posted by eberly at 2024-03-07 01:27 PM | Reply

-Few things disgust me more than seeing a HS with a multi-million dollar football field. Like where are your priorities?
I agree. completely screwed up priorities.
#43 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Yep, this too.

I was looking at some 5k at a local school, and wondering if kids in Texas had ever seen a typical mid-Atlantic high school football field, with crummy metal bleachers on one side for the away team and wood benches on concrete on the other side for the home team. With the school money going to, I dunno, education maybe, instead of sports.

#48 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:29 PM | Reply

SEIU is an interesting choice. Academia has been joining the United Auto Workers, even though they don't work on autos. There's more people in higher education jobs in the UAW than work for GM now.

#49 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-03-07 01:36 PM | Reply

footballscoop.com

$100million stadium

#50 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-03-07 01:38 PM | Reply

So...I was not a college athlete, but aren't they normally the recipients of scholarships? Tuition alone at Dartmouth is $64k per year. It's $88k per year out the door.

I bet most of the SEIU employees wish they were getting $88k per year.

#51 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-03-07 01:40 PM | Reply

Football palaces have Teacher's Association approval, which is their Texas version of a union. "We'll make it back by hosting events" (aka Sunday church services). They also keep having to add more and more because of UIL requirements fixing the number of nights per week teams can play, and the developers of the stadiums and schools bankroll the ISD school board seats.

#52 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-03-07 01:40 PM | Reply

"Texas version of a union"

Is that the kind where they can't make you join, and they can't withhold union dues from your paycheck?

Teacher Union Strength By Rank And Tier
fordhaminstitute.org
Texas ranks 44th. On the low end, even for Red states.

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-03-07 01:47 PM | Reply

"Is that the kind where they can't make you join, and they can't withhold union dues from your paycheck?"

Yep. But the Union still must incur expenses making sure management adheres to the contract provisions for the non-dues payers.

#54 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-03-07 02:24 PM | Reply

-Few things disgust me more than seeing a HS with a multi-million dollar football field. Like where are your priorities?
I agree. completely screwed up priorities.
#43 | POSTED BY EBERLY
Yep, this too.
I was looking at some 5k at a local school, and wondering if kids in Texas had ever seen a typical mid-Atlantic high school football field, with crummy metal bleachers on one side for the away team and wood benches on concrete on the other side for the home team. With the school money going to, I dunno, education maybe, instead of sports.

#48 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Allen, TX High School has a $60 million football stadium.

Even the poor schools here have $10 million stadiums.

I was in Jacksonville, TX. It's one of the poorer Texas cities. A few years ago they spent $15 million just renovating their stadium.

Welcome to Texas.

#55 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-03-07 03:24 PM | Reply

There's usually more to the price. They will embed the stadium funding into a bond, but not fund the parking lot and road improvements to get to the stadium, then come back for that funding later.

Wait till you see the performing arts centers, they spare no expense.

#56 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-03-07 03:40 PM | Reply

Then the pseudo unions start pitching how the projects will pay for themselves through catering (Cy fair Berry Center).

#57 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-03-07 03:42 PM | Reply

I'll put down "labor relations" as another thing you know nothing about.

#58 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2024-03-07 11:33 PM | Reply