Sunday, November 17, 2024

Trump to Kill Biden EV Tax Credit, Kill Musk's Competition

President-elect Donald Trump's transition team is planning to kill the $7,500 consumer tax credit for electric-vehicle purchases as part of broader tax-reform legislation, two sources with direct knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

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"Tesla CEO Elon Musk, one of Trump's biggest backers and the world's richest person, said in July that killing the subsidy might slightly hurt Tesla sales but would be "devastating" to its U.S. EV competitors, which include legacy automakers such as General Motors.

Shares of Tesla ended nearly 6% lower at $311.18, while shares of smaller EV rival Rivian (RIVN.O), opens new tab closed down 14% at $10.31. Lucid (LCID.O), opens new tab, another EV maker, tumbled 5% to $2.08.

Repealing the subsidy, a signature measure of Democratic President Joe Biden's Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), is being discussed in meetings by an energy-policy transition team led by billionaire oilman Harold Hamm, founder of Continental Resources, and Republican North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, the two sources said."

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Wow.... these billionaire oil men are doing well since they gave Trump the money and he told them he would do whatever they wanted.

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-16 11:12 PM

Fascism and corruption go hand in hand.

We are now russia.

#2 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-17 03:05 PM

#2

That's only fair... after all, Russia chose to be us; a corrupt capitalist Oligarchy after the Wall came down, and their poor Soviet Oligarchs chose that richer path over becoming Norway, or one of the other happiest countries in the world nearby with a social democracy.

We just doubled down on being just that, a corrupt capitalist Oligarchy with Big Oil in charge of Energy, and Musk in charge of everything else.

We are like Russia's Gangster Grandfather... or Godfather.

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-17 03:25 PM

It was a crappy tax credit anyway. You could only get the full $7500 if you were paying that much in tax. Meanwhile, prices get advertised as if the credit was there for everybody.

It should have been a refundable credit.

#4 | Posted by DarkVader at 2024-11-17 03:51 PM

"It was a crappy tax credit anyway. You could only get the full $7500 if you were paying that much in tax."

Must be nice to not have to pay $7500 in taxes.

It worked for me. Twice. Then it was nice. Really nice.

#5 | Posted by donnerboy at 2024-11-17 04:05 PM

How does this kill Tesla's competitors?

#6 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-17 07:21 PM

You should learn to read you ------- piece of ----.

#7 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-17 07:32 PM

Just what the magat scum voted for, to pay more taxes

fuvking morons

#8 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-17 07:34 PM

" You should learn to read you ------- piece of ----."

I did, you economics illiterate idiot.

You are so ------- stupid, Twoothy. Emotion dominates all of your thinking. It's retarded.

#9 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-17 09:38 PM

Magat scum says he didn't read the article without saying he didn't read the article

You ------- lying piece of ----

#10 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-17 09:46 PM

@#9 ... I did, you economics illiterate idiot.

You are so ------- stupid, ...

I might have taken a different approach in that reply.

For example, I would have tried to explain that Tesla currently seems to have a high name recognition in the EV world, and that a EV tax credit wouldn't matter for Tesla.

But if your current alias prefers to go with the ad hominem attacks instead of providing a meaning answer, well, go for it.


:)

#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-11-17 09:47 PM

I read the article you moron. It doesn't say what you think it says.

I'll use some crayon and spell out some basic economics for you.

Eliminating an EV subsidy (that it even existed in the first place is absurd, but I digress) hurts EV production more than IC power rain production. Tesla is one of the only companies that produces EV's only. The Big 3 domestically produce all sorts of powertrains and EV's so far are less profitable for Ford or GM than IC powertrains. To say that this proposal benefits Tesla over domestic automakers is profoundly ignorant of basic economics. But, you be you.

#12 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-17 09:51 PM

" But if your current alias prefers to go with the ad hominem attacks ... "

That you'd call ME out for that and give Twoothy a complete pass is absurd. But stick with it.

#13 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-17 09:53 PM

Christ you're a stupid ------- moron

"Getting rid of the subsidy means that competitors can't catch up and won't be able to compete on a cost basis,"

You do get that the NON-tesla companies need subsidies to make their expansion to build hybrids and electric cars profitable right?
Without those subsidies the NON-tesla companies won't be able to afford to expand their businesses to build electric and hybrid cars

You following yet, you ------- idiot?

Who would benefit when Tesla's competitors drop out?

Now combine that with your hero instituting cost prohibitive tariffs against foreign imports that compete with Tesla, who is to benefit? Which ------- ------- billionaire sitting next to your hero would certainly benefit from a monopoly?

Yet you proudly and stubbornly refuse to understand what was written in black and white

Cause, jeff, you're a soulless piece of ---- human being, a nihilistic lying piece of ---- troll.

#14 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-17 10:15 PM

@#12 ... I read the article you moron. ...

So, out of the gate

@#12 ... you moron. ...

So, yet another ad hominem attack. (sometimes I wonder if there are multiple people behind that current alias)


... It doesn't say what you think it says. ...

And now the current alias seems to know what I think? How?

... Eliminating an EV subsidy (that it even existed in the first place is absurd ...

OK, now down to the nub.

Why is it absurd that it even existed in the first place?

Are government subsidies that promote a better future absurd?

If so, please discuss the subsides that Big Oil receives.

#15 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-11-17 10:26 PM

Not only is Twoothy eceomics illiterate he's also apparently a Communist.

Domestic auto makers don't need subsidies to produce EV's. In fact, take away the mandate for EV's and Tesla will lose market share as the demand isn't there you ------- moron.

#16 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 08:13 AM

" So, yet another ad hominem attack"

You are a piece of work, Lamplighter.

For example,

" Christ you're a stupid ------- moron ... . You following yet, you ------- idiot ... .. Cause, jeff, you're a soulless piece of ---- human being, a nihilistic lying piece of ---- troll.

#14 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS AT 2024-11-17 10:15 PM | FLAG: "

*Yawn*. Nothing to see there. - Lamplighter

" I read the article you moron. It doesn't say what you think it says. 12 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER AT 2024-11-17 09:51 PM | FLAG: "

OMG!!!!! You called him a moron! *Gasp* You are so mean - Lamplighter.

#17 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 08:35 AM

Whiny little bitch

#18 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 09:25 AM

And don't ask me, as the owner of Tesla who is a. thrilled by this and b. is likely behind the push to get rid of the subsidy.

Whiny little bitch doesn't understand the benefit of getting rid of competition.

#19 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 09:26 AM

I'm pointing out Lamplighter's glaring double standard.

Getting rid of competition? I'm going to bust out the crayons and dumb it down for you.

Tesla's entire fleet is EV's. So that subsidy is applied to every vehicle Tesla sells. Currently, the most profitable vehicles for the big 3 are trucks. That goofy looking cyber truck gets a $7500 advantage over every F150 Ford sells except it's niche Lightning.

Ending the subsidy is beneficial to the Big 3 as a whole and harms Tesla disproportionately because the government mandated advantage it has enjoyed goes away. It's ridiculous that this even has to be explained to you, but then your thinking is dominated by emotion. Logic is wholly absent.

#20 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 09:37 AM

"And don't ask me, as the owner of Tesla who is a. thrilled by this and b. is likely behind the push to get rid of the subsidy."

there are likely very few people, if any, who believes you own a Tesla.

Regardless, you're very toxic right now, Twoothy. Very few people will be engaging you.

So....no....nobody is going to ask you a damn thing.

#21 | Posted by eberly at 2024-11-18 10:12 AM

Oh god no subsidies for Rivian? How will they sell 90k SUVs to the 1% without a tax subsidy? This is horrible.

#22 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 10:35 AM

In addition, your modified adjusted gross income (AGI) may not exceed: $300,000 for married couples filing jointly or a surviving spouse. $225,000 for heads of households. $150,000 for all other filers.

Thank you Dark Brandon. What would these high earners do without subsidies?

#23 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 10:49 AM

We are now russia.

#2 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

We are like Russia's Gangster Grandfather... or Godfather.

#3 | Posted by Corky

thank you for your "insight"....heh heh heh heh

which one of you is going to be Boris and who's gonna be Natasha ?

#24 | Posted by shrimptacodan at 2024-11-18 10:53 AM

I'm pointing out Lamplighter's glaring double standard.

Getting rid of competition? I'm going to bust out the crayons and dumb it down for you.

Tesla's entire fleet is EV's. So that subsidy is applied to every vehicle Tesla sells. Currently, the most profitable vehicles for the big 3 are trucks. That goofy looking cyber truck gets a $7500 advantage over every F150 Ford sells except it's niche Lightning.

Ending the subsidy is beneficial to the Big 3 as a whole and harms Tesla disproportionately because the government mandated advantage it has enjoyed goes away. It's ridiculous that this even has to be explained to you, but then your thinking is dominated by emotion. Logic is wholly absent.

#20 | Posted by BellRinger

No, dummy.

Taking away the EV credit means other automakers can't break into the space and Tesla can ride it's market share.

As for trucks, the Cybertruck is barely a blip in truck sales. TOGETHER they account for only 2.3% of all new pick up trucks sold in the US last year. It's the EV car space that matters.

Ending the subsidy is beneficial to Tesla as a whole and harms the Big 3 disproportionately because it makes breaking into the EV space far more costly and time consuming. It's ridiculous that this even has to be explained to you, but then your thinking is dominated by Trump/Elon butt kissing. Logic is wholly absent.

#25 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-11-18 11:16 AM

You would fail an Econ101 class with that "logic".

#26 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 11:27 AM

The mandates are the real problem. But then, centrally planned economics has never worked no matter how much people like Sycophant will scream otherwise.

With or without the mandate the competition between EV's remains the same.

#27 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 11:29 AM

With or without the subsidy the competition between EV's remains the same.

#28 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 11:30 AM

The big 3 can't compete with subsidies against another American car company. Miniscule sales.

That's not a govt problem.

#29 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 11:31 AM

With or without the mandate the competition between EV's remains the same.
#27 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER

Well the competition is ICE.


Taking away the EV credit means other automakers can't break into the space and Tesla can ride it's market share.

How much time did they need? Why not buy a small company already producing one, and make it better?


Ending the subsidy is beneficial to Tesla as a whole and harms the Big 3 disproportionately because it makes breaking into the EV space far more costly and time consuming.

It costs the same, regardless of the subsidy. How would it add time?


It's ridiculous that this even has to be explained to you, but then your thinking is dominated by Trump/Elon butt kissing. Logic is wholly absent.

Thats funny right there.

#30 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-11-18 11:34 AM


We are now russia.
#2 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

We are like Russia's Gangster Grandfather... or Godfather.
#3 | Posted by Corky

Is this for real? FFS

#31 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-11-18 11:35 AM


The mandates are the real problem. But then, centrally planned economics has never worked no matter how much people like Sycophant will scream otherwise.

This is where Syncophant doesn't understand what is happening,

Tesla sells mandated carbon credits to the tune $1.8B for doing absolutely nothing.
carboncredits.com

#32 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-11-18 11:39 AM

Ending a subsidy that benefits every single vehicle Tesla sells somehow benefits ... .Tesla.

Lefty logic' at its finest.

#33 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 11:42 AM

#33 | Posted by BellRinger

there's one little problem they have.

they're not allowed to say anything positive about musk.....anymore.

now if he were to pull a DICK cheney.....well...."opinions" would be different.

#34 | Posted by shrimptacodan at 2024-11-18 11:50 AM

Stinkerbelle could have just read excerpt from the article in Post #1 above quoting Elon Musk:

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk, one of Trump's biggest backers and the world's richest person, said in July that killing the subsidy might slightly hurt Tesla sales but would be "devastating" to its U.S. EV competitors, which include legacy automakers such as General Motors."

Of course, he knows more about the economics of this than does Musk.... ROFL!

#35 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-18 11:57 AM

China is Musk's competition... soooo I don't think so.

I watched this video the other day... interesting watch.

#36 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2024-11-18 12:11 PM

"To say that this proposal benefits Tesla over domestic automakers is profoundly ignorant of basic economics. But, you be you."

Tesla is filling parking lots with unsold Teslas but to say that tax credit didn't stimulate sales for the past few years is ridiculous; Musk just doesn't want it to now benefit other companies like GM or Ford because he doesn't want them competing with Tesla. Only a moron wouldn't already know that since it is discussed in the article the thread is based on. Duh! But now eith a potential Trump appointee claiming global warming isn't real we do know that all the stupid people in the U.S. will be repeating it while the rest of the world laughs at their ignorance! EVs could be a big help in silving that major problem whichthe idiots dob't even acknowledge is a problem.

#37 | Posted by danni at 2024-11-18 12:38 PM

You can stimulate sales with regressive taxation.

It's not progressive to support a wealth transfer to the 1% for their luxury vehicles.

#38 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 01:25 PM

"Dems for tax breaks for the wealthy".

Lets lose the plot some more. We haven't finished murdering what's left of consistency in a party platform.

#39 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 01:27 PM

Who are you going to believe, jeff-who is, objectively, a moron or the CEO of Tesla as to whether this benefits Tesla?

Jeff does not understand the concept of short-term loss to receive massive long-term gains

Jeff does not understand the purpose of this tax benefit, which is to encourage the purchase of EV which would provide domestic car companies an incentive to develop the infrastructure-plants, supply chains, machinery, skilled labor force to build EV on a scale to match an increased demand.

Jeff does not understand that Tesla will have an effective monopoly for many years, until other car companies develop the infrastructure to compete.

Jeff does not understand the benefits of monopolies on pricing, market control, control of supply chains over competitors

Jeff does not understand basic economics.

Jeff will come along to say some non-sequitur about communism

Jeff is not too bright.

#40 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 01:37 PM

It's not progressive to support a wealth transfer to the 1% for their luxury vehicles.

#38 | Posted by sitzkrieg

If you think $20k is a luxury vehicle, maybe you should examine how you failed so hard in life.

#41 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 01:38 PM

With or without the subsidy the competition between EV's remains the same.

#28 | Posted by BellRinger

Without the subsidy will the DEMAND for EVs remain the same?

Removing the subsidy will lower, increase or raise the demand?

If the removal of the subsidy will LOWER demand, how will that effect those companies who are building up their infrastructure to build EVs?

#42 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 01:39 PM

Of course the subsidy causes an increase in demand. If EV's are so great they wouldn't need a subsidy. The real winner here is the ICE and levelin* the playing field between the ICE and EV actually hurts Tesla. But Twoothy lacks a 3rd grade understanding of economics and here we are.

#43 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 01:48 PM

Of course the subsidy causes an increase in demand. If EV's are so great they wouldn't need a subsidy. The real winner here is the ICE and levelin* the playing field between the ICE and EV actually hurts Tesla. But Twoothy lacks a 3rd grade understanding of economics and here we are.

#43 | Posted by BellRinger

If oil wasn't subsidized EVs wouldnt need a subsidy to compete because gas would cost 6 dollars a gallon more.

#44 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 01:55 PM

If you think $20k is a luxury vehicle, maybe you should examine how you failed so hard in life.

#41 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 01:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

You trauma from giving Musk money still shows. That's the depreciated price, for the car you used to trumpet how great the depreciation really was and linked articles about it.

#45 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 01:56 PM

The credit for buying used is separate, and much lower, than the credit for buying new, along with the income requirements.

#46 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 01:57 PM

#44. Oil generates far more in tax revenue than it does in it receives in government subsidies. Can't say the same about any form of "green energy".

#47 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 01:57 PM

And since speaks was afraid to answer if he bought FSD or not, we can assume that's a yes.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 01:58 PM

BellsforBrains still running away from Musk's own explanation in #35.

He can run away, but he can't hide.

#49 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-18 02:00 PM

Listen to Corky tout a man who likely views as evil (Musk) as an oracle on economics. It's so cute.

#50 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 02:08 PM

Of course the subsidy causes an increase in demand. If EV's are so great they wouldn't need a subsidy. The real winner here is the ICE and levelin* the playing field between the ICE and EV actually hurts Tesla. But Twoothy lacks a 3rd grade understanding of economics and here we are.

#43 | Posted by BellRinger

JFC Jeff you are a ------- moron.

EV's being "great" is a small piece of the puzzle, you ------- dolt.

Have you ever heard of something called a Price?

How does Price work?

Does it have something to do with demand? Does it have something to do with the materials and labor to build the object that is the subject of the Price?

Are you aware that an industry has something called a capacity? That capacity is how many things can be built?

Did you know that building something like a completely new type of car requires ALL SORTS of NEW things, like new types of materials, new types of equipment, new types of labor skills?

Do you know that these things don't grow on trees, right?

You know it takes a huge investment (in capital, time and focus) to build out capacity on a new thing, right?

So, which company is going to be impacted more by cutting subsides, long term-the company with an established supply chain, industrial capacity and trained labor force or the company that is building their capacity?

You do realize that without the sales of their existing (smaller market share) EVs that the companies will have to invest their existing capital on what is now a less secure market, you get that right?

Now, I have made it all very simple.

You will continue to make your simpleton and ignorant arguments, because you are a piece of ---- troll.

BTW did you ever admit that the Republican senators are yielding their power to ----ler? You know, like you brag about, like when you make a mistake you admit it?

That's what I thought -------

#51 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 02:09 PM

Listen to Corky tout a man who likely views as evil (Musk) as an oracle on economics. It's so cute.

#50 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER AT 2024-11-18 02:08 PM | REPLY

I don't know how to process some rando claiming he knows more about Tesla than the owner of Tesla

This is your brain on maga

#52 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 02:12 PM

#50

Admitting that you are wrong seems too high a hurdle for you.... so just tell us how you know more about Musk's business, and his motivations, than he does?

#53 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-18 02:15 PM


Trump to Kill Biden EV Tax Credit, Kill Musk's Competition

Welcome to the purge.

#54 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-11-18 02:19 PM

#51. Demand for EV's is not there even with the regressive subsidy. It's why domestic automakers have considerably reduced their projected EV fleet. People don't want them in mass numbers. A subsidy does not make domestic automakers any more competitive with Tesla than without the subsidy. Like a sheep you keep sayin* the same economically illiterate things over and over.

GM increasing its Colorado sales at the expense of its Volt sales is a huge boon to their bottom line. Ending the subsidy only harms EV sales. This has gotten circular because you are incapable of independent thought. It's all emotion with you.

As for the recess appointment gambit you are alluding to ... .IF it happens I will be screaming out loudly in denunciation.

#55 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 02:38 PM

The credit for buying used is separate, and much lower, than the credit for buying new, along with the income requirements.

#46 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Oh so it's not just credits for rich people then drama queen?

#56 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 02:46 PM

And since speaks was afraid to answer if he bought FSD or not, we can assume that's a yes.

#48 | Posted by sitzkrieg

Your conclusion can only be explained by illiteracy.

#57 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 02:47 PM

#51. Demand for EV's is not there even with the regressive subsidy.

#55 | Posted by BellRinger

Because the subsidies for oil are so large that EVs need a bigger subsidy to compete.

Should be be subsidizing oil? Or are EVs the only vehicles that should play on a level playing field?

#58 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 02:48 PM

Ending the subsidy is beneficial to Tesla as a whole and harms the Big 3 disproportionately because it makes breaking into the EV space far more costly and time consuming. It's ridiculous that this even has to be explained to you, but then your thinking is dominated by Trump/Elon butt kissing. Logic is wholly absent.

#25 | Posted by Sycophant

You would fail an Econ101 class with that "logic".

#26 | Posted by BellRinger

This isn't rocket science. It's Econ 101 that you obviously don't understand.

Tesla takes a small hit from the loss of the EV tax credit. BUT it ensures they keep a huge market share by stifling competition.

Would you rather lose 5% of sales to elimination of the EV tax credit or 25-40% to competition?

You've never been the smartest person in the room even when you were alone.

#59 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-11-18 02:59 PM

When we look at tax revenues kin's subsidies fossil fuels still pay far more than they receive. Green energy? The opposite.

But, let's keep wasting money and doubling down on bad policy.

#60 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 02:59 PM

When we look at tax revenues kin's subsidies fossil fuels still pay far more than they receive. Green energy? The opposite.

But, let's keep wasting money and doubling down on bad policy.

#60 | Posted by BellRinger

What about when we include the financial costs of climate change?

www.forbes.com
Climate Change Will Cost Global Economy $38 Trillion Every Year Within 25 Years, Scientists Warn

#61 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 03:01 PM

You've never been the smartest person in the room even when you were alone.

Posted by Sycophant at 2024-11-18 02:59 PM | Reply

OUCH That's gonna leave a mark.

#62 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2024-11-18 03:01 PM

#59

Ballsmeller is smarter on the EV market than Musk... just ax' him.

#63 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-18 03:02 PM

Because the subsidies for oil are so large that EVs need a bigger subsidy to compete.

Nothing wrong with subsidies for better battery research. America will spend $1.3 trillion in renewable subsidies over the next decade from Inflation Reduction Act tax subsidies.

The subsidies for EVs benefits a rich class of people. You're asking for tax credit for the rich. Oil subsidies help all classes. Its an important distinction, which is why people call it "regressive".

#64 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-11-18 03:03 PM


Ballsmeller is smarter on the EV market than Musk... just ax' him.
#63 | POSTED BY CORKY

Musk doesn't mind the subsidy going away, it only affects the number of cars sold. What he really likes is the Billions brought in by the carbon credits.

#65 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-11-18 03:04 PM

#59. I'll break it down for you. The subsidy applies to ALL EV's. Tesla gains zero advantage over Leaf production because both Tesla and Nissan lose the subsidy. Fortunately for Nissan, if demand for its EV's goes down due to a taxpayer handout going away they still have a fleet of IC vehicles to to absorb the reduction in demand. Tesla doesn't have that. Eliminating the subsidy harms Tesla and Rivian the most. Lotus as well, although at least they still have the Elmira. As for Porsche it's Taycan sales will take a hit but those losses will be absorbed by an increase in Panamera sales.

Your view of this is WAY too narrow. Please take a couple of Econ classes and nut up on basic principles.

#66 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 03:05 PM

" Climate Change Will Cost Global Economy $38 Trillion Every Year Within 25 Years, Scientists Warn

#61 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2024-11-18 03:01 PM | FLAG: "

EV's won't even make a dent in that. And I abhor ridiculous doomsday scenarios as they are not factually grounded. They have proven to be reverse engineered every time.

#67 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 03:07 PM

" OUCH That's gonna leave a mark.

#62 | POSTED BY LAURAMOHR AT 2024-11-18 03:01 PM | FLAG: "

A good insult - and it was a good one - is no substitute for a sound argument.

#68 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 03:08 PM

-Would you rather lose 5% of sales to elimination of the EV tax credit or 25-40% to competition?

are you just making those numbers up to make a point or is there any specific accuracy to them?

#69 | Posted by eberly at 2024-11-18 03:10 PM

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk, one of Trump's biggest backers and the world's richest person, said in July that killing the subsidy might slightly hurt Tesla sales but would be "devastating" to its U.S. EV competitors, which include legacy automakers such as General Motors."

Musk or Ballsniffer on the EV market?

Such a difficult choice....

#70 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-18 03:11 PM

Trump to Kill Biden EV Tax Credit, Kill Musk's Competition

Government involved in the free market is never a good idea

#71 | Posted by Maverick at 2024-11-18 03:16 PM

"Trump may end the $7,500 EV tax credit. Elon Musk and Tesla would reap the rewards

"Take away the subsidies, it will only help Tesla," he posted on his social media platform X in July."

"But several analysts who follow Tesla agree that the end of the credit would be a positive for the EV leader. Tesla (TSLA) shares rebounded a bit in premarket trading Friday.

The end of the credit "will widen Tesla's competitive moat by making competing EV models even more uneconomic, as we believe TSLA is the only profitable manufacturer of EVs," wrote Garrett Nelson, analyst for CFRA Research, in a note to clients the day after the election.

"For these reasons, we now view Tesla shares as deserving of higher multiples, but acknowledge challenges in the near term."

www.cnn.com

#72 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-18 03:17 PM

The subsidies for EVs benefits a rich class of people. You're asking for tax credit for the rich. Oil subsidies help all classes. Its an important distinction, which is why people call it "regressive".

#64 | Posted by oneironaut

So used 25k cars are for "rich people"? You need to update your propaganda

#73 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 03:32 PM

#71 | Posted by Maverick

The internet that which allows you to post such a remark would like to have a word with you.

#74 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2024-11-18 03:35 PM

EV's won't even make a dent in that. And I abhor ridiculous doomsday scenarios as they are not factually grounded. They have proven to be reverse engineered every time.

#67 | Posted by BellRinger

Ok give us YOUR best estimate for climate change costs. Please include droughts, food shortages, mass migration, water shortages, resource wars, insurance costs, hurricanes wiping out coastal locations, and sea level rise requiring entire cities to be relocated.

#75 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 03:35 PM

"The subsidies for EVs benefits a rich class of people."

Huh? There are income caps which belie your claim. WTF are you talking about???

"Oil subsidies help all classes."

Yeah...mainly, a rich class of investor people.

You've got your concepts completely backwards.

#76 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 03:40 PM

"Oil subsidies help all classes."

are you referring to the prices of all petroleum based products such as gasoline, plastics, rubber, etc?

You aren't just talking about the investor class of oil companies, right?

#77 | Posted by eberly at 2024-11-18 03:46 PM

" Ok give us YOUR best estimate for climate change costs"

If the entire globe were to go 100% green' in a year it would have at best a negligible impact on weather events due to a warming planet.

#78 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 03:47 PM

There are income caps which belie your claim. WTF are you talking about???

#76 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 03:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's 150k, 300k for married couples. That's California poor, but it's not really poor anywhere else.

#79 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 03:47 PM

" Huh? There are income caps which belie your claim. WTF are you talking about???"

A Nissan Leaf entry level is a little over $28K. A Sentra entry level is $21K

That's about a 30% price hike to jump from an ICE to a comparable EV.

#80 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 03:52 PM

"It's 150k, 300k for married couples."

So the claim EVs benefit "a rich class of people" is manure. The cap eliminates the top 10% of earners.

#81 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 03:52 PM

"I abhor ridiculous doomsday scenarios as they are not factually grounded."
~Bellringer, 3:07pm

"If the entire globe were to go 100% green' in a year it would have at best a negligible impact on weather events"
~Bellringer, 40 minutes later

#82 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 03:56 PM

If the entire globe were to go 100% green' in a year it would have at best a negligible impact on weather events due to a warming planet.

#78 | Posted by BellRinger

Yeah because we'd still have to deal with the damage caused by the last 5 decades of conservative denialism.

Steering the climate is like steering an aircraft carrier. That doesn't mean you keep heading for an iceberg.

Now what is YOUR estimated cost of the effects from climate change since you don't accept the costs from experts?

#83 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 04:02 PM

" Bellringer, 40 minutes later"

That's not a doomsday prediction.

#84 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 04:49 PM

So the claim EVs benefit "a rich class of people" is manure. The cap eliminates the top 10% of earners.

#81 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 03:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

"300k a year isn't rich!" It's not private jet rich, but it's far above the median. "Real median household income was $80,610 in 2023"

It's regressive taxation for perceived environmental benefit. Except in America it means 9000 pound Hummers. I drove one, it's awesome. It's terrible for the environment.

#85 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 05:43 PM

At 300k you're Private Cessna rich, but not Pilatus PC-12 NGX rich. You need to own 10 McDonalds to run that.

#86 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 05:44 PM

It's regressive taxation for perceived environmental benefit. Except in America it means 9000 pound Hummers. I drove one, it's awesome. It's terrible for the environment.

#85 | Posted by sitzkrieg

How is a $4k discount on used EVs under $25k regressive?

How broke are you exactly and how did you screw up your life so badly?

#87 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 05:49 PM

Why is it massively important to give a tax credit on a heavily depreciated Model 3?

#88 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 05:51 PM

hedgescompany.com

demographics of Tesla owners.

#89 | Posted by eberly at 2024-11-18 05:52 PM

To add to those demo data...

"As of 2022, the median age of a Tesla Model 3 owner was 51 years, with a median household income exceeding $128,000. Ownership was predominantly male, with men accounting for 84% of Model 3 owners. Additionally, 55% of Model 3 owners resided in the wealthiest 10% of ZIP codes in the United States."

Older males, usually white, middle-upper class, mostly from rich areas... as we know, the most progressive demographic...

#90 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-18 06:04 PM

Why is it massively important to give a tax credit on a heavily depreciated Model 3?

#88 | Posted by sitzkrieg

To help the poor people that you pretend to care about drive a car that doesn't roast the planet as much.

#91 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 06:09 PM

If the entire globe were to go 100% green' in a year it would have at best a negligible impact on weather events due to a warming planet.

#78 | Posted by BellRinger

When the world went into lockdown in 2020, there was a marked decrease in green house gases you ignorant twerp.

#92 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 06:13 PM

I am so ------- tired of ignorant -------- making -------- proclamations like they are fact.

en.wikipedia.org

You're a ------- disease jeff

#93 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 06:15 PM

" Bellringer, 40 minutes later"

That's not a doomsday prediction.

#84 | Posted by BellRinger

Can anyone name a bigger pedantic ---- than this --------?

#94 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 06:16 PM


To help the poor people that you pretend to care about drive a car that doesn't roast the planet as much.

#91 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

What is your definition of poor? Its a whole years salary to purchase a Model 3. In fact the poor can't even make use of the credit as they don't pay that much in taxes at that income level.

You want to not roast the planet, enforce laws so people can take transit safely. Everyone driving a car isn't going to help the environment.

#95 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-11-18 06:21 PM

When the world went into lockdown in 2020, there was a marked decrease in green house gases you ignorant twerp.

Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-18 06:13 PM | Reply

Yeppers very much so.

#96 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2024-11-18 06:24 PM

What is your definition of poor? Its a whole years salary to purchase a Model 3. In fact the poor can't even make use of the credit as they don't pay that much in taxes at that income level.

You want to not roast the planet, enforce laws so people can take transit safely. Everyone driving a car isn't going to help the environment.

#95 | Posted by oneironaut

Guess who climate change hurts first and worst? The poor. Even if the tax credit doesn't get the poor into free cars, they still benefit.

Then Guess how the the party you shill for every day would react if someone proposed forcing everyone to take mass transit.

#97 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 06:36 PM

" When the world went into lockdown in 2020, there was a marked decrease in green house gases you ignorant twerp.

#92 | POSTED BY TRUTHHURTS AT 2024-11-18 06:13 PM | FLAG: "

Human generated carbon emissions, which are only a fraction of what is produced by nature. And, yeah, let's just go back permanently to that atrocity.

You are such a vicious ghoul. Go hole up in your own domicile permanently. I will continue to live my life and the rest of us rejoice you becoming a hermit.

#98 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 06:57 PM

Human generated carbon emissions, which are only a fraction of what is produced by nature.
#98 | Posted by BellRinger

Nature had a balance between carbon emissions and carbon absorption. Then humans discovered oil and how rich they could get by pumping out way more carbon than nature could handle. Now the oceans temps are rising, coral reefs are dying, mass extinction is occurring, rivers are drying up, storms are getting bigger, droughts are getting worse...

But keep spewing exxons propaganda and preventing any improvement from occurring. Just like the oil puppet party has done for decades.

#99 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 07:12 PM

You and Corky went to the Djibouti school of economics.

#100 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2024-11-18 07:19 PM

"That's not a doomsday prediction."

Riiiiiight.

It's just a bs statement retrofitted to your use.

You know...the exact thing you complained about, 40 minutes earlier.

#101 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 08:14 PM

"It's not private jet rich, but it's far above the median."

It doesn't crack the top 10%.

Anything that eliminates the richest 10% shouldn't be represented as for rich folks only.

#102 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 08:18 PM

"It's just a bs statement retrofitted to your use."

No. it isn't. Look at any climate models and you will see it's accurate. But, you like to bite ankles so keep being you.

#103 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 11:04 PM

More than 99.9% of studies agree: Humans caused climate change

news.cornell.edu

#104 | Posted by Corky at 2024-11-18 11:18 PM

#104 So, prior to the existence of humans global climate was completely stagnant, amirite?

#105 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-18 11:22 PM

#104 So, prior to the existence of humans global climate was completely stagnant, amirite?

#105 | Posted by BellRinger

How many times have you used this same argument? How many times has it been explained to you? How many threads have you then vanished from, only to reappear the next day and make the same argument?

#106 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-18 11:54 PM

Democrats once again using taxpayer subsidized govt price controls and rebates to pick and chse those certain businesses that will benefit instead of a free market. Keep the historic Biden ineptness away from government before it creates a depression or starts a nuclear war.

#107 | Posted by Robson at 2024-11-19 07:29 AM

When we look at tax revenues kin's subsidies fossil fuels still pay far more than they receive. Green energy? The opposite.
But, let's keep wasting money and doubling down on bad policy.

#60 | Posted by BellRinger

A good insult - and it was a good one - is no substitute for a sound argument.

#68 | Posted by BellRinger

Apparently it was also a sound argument too because your response was to change the subject.

Jeff gets Fact Checked
Jeff changes the subject.

Nothing ever changes.

#108 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-11-19 10:19 AM

"Look at any climate models and you will see it's accurate."

Feel free to link; it's your claim.

#109 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-19 10:35 AM

Had every country signed onto Kyoto back in the 90's AND had they met their stated goals (none have) the rate of warming by 2100 would have been slowed by one tenth of one degree.

But let's totally destroy our economy and take the poor and make them destitute so that left elites can signal virtue. br />

#110 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-11-19 12:19 PM

Anything that eliminates the richest 10% shouldn't be represented as for rich folks only.

#102 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-11-18 08:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

The household tax credit has a $300k ceiling. Top 10% of households is $167k.

Keep going though, keep telling me how much I need a $4k credit on a H3 lol.

#111 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-19 12:29 PM

If I wanted more tax breaks I could just vote Republican lol.

#112 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-11-19 12:30 PM

Had every country signed onto Kyoto back in the 90's AND had they met their stated goals (none have) the rate of warming by 2100 would have been slowed by one tenth of one degree.

But let's totally destroy our economy and take the poor and make them destitute so that left elites can signal virtue. br />

#110 | Posted by BellRinger a

Liar

#113 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-11-19 12:40 PM

Democrats once again using taxpayer subsidized govt price controls and rebates to pick and chse those certain businesses that will benefit instead of a free market. Keep the historic Biden ineptness away from government before it creates a depression or starts a nuclear war.

#107 | Posted by Robson

A free market would mean no oil subsidies, and climate destruction paid for at the gas pump. Is that what you are proposing?

#114 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-19 12:55 PM

But let's totally destroy our economy and take the poor and make them destitute so that left elites can signal virtue. br />

#110 | Posted by BellRinger

We could have profited from the solution and created all new industries with way better jobs than digging flamable rocks out of the ground if we hadn't let the pollution puppet party stand in the way.

#115 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-19 12:56 PM

If I wanted more tax breaks I could just vote Republican lol.

#112 | Posted by sitzkrieg

You don't earn enough money for republicans to cut your taxes

#116 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2024-11-19 12:57 PM

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