Saturday, February 15, 2025

Black Hawk Helicopter's Altimeter may have been Inaccurate

A preliminary analysis of the flight data and voice recorder on board a Black Hawk helicopter leading up to the collision with a commercial flight over Washington, DC, on January 29, indicated the helicopter's altimeter may have been inaccurate and the pilots may not have heard some calls from the Reagan National Airport control tower, officials said.

Posted by redial at 03:31 PM | 43 COMMENTS | permalink

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Black Hawk helicopter that hit passenger plane might have had an inaccurate altimeter and crew may not have heard calls from control tower, NTSB says.

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-- CNN (@cnn.com) February 14, 2025 at 5:36 PM

Comments

Let's hear the-------------'s explanation:

"I guess the helicopter was high, and we will point out exactly what happened," he said. "But the odds even if you had nothing, nobody, the odds of that happening are extremely small. Did you ever go to a driving range in golf and hit hundreds of balls, thousands of hours. I've never seen a ball hit another ball. You never see them hit and balls going up all over the place. That is amazing that could happen."

#1 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2025-02-14 05:07 PM

indicated the helicopter's altimeter may have been inaccurate

This is a little incorrect, its not the altimeter's fault if you dial in the wrong pressure in the kollsman window.

#2 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-02-14 06:13 PM


In particular, before the collision, the tower told the helicopter to pass behind the commuter jet. But in the audio from the helicopter's voice recorder, the instruction was not heard, possibly because the pilots had keyed their microphone to reach the tower at the same time.

Strange the ATC audio had them confirming.

#3 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-02-14 06:14 PM

IAMRUNT is the ------- who said it was a police helicopter.

#4 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2025-02-14 06:19 PM

if you dial in the wrong pressure

Did they?

#5 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-14 07:00 PM

#2 | Posted by oneironass

LOL!!!

Like this dirtbag knows manure from m'n'ms...

#6 | Posted by Angrydad at 2025-02-14 08:09 PM

Like this dirtbag knows manure from m'n'ms...

When in doubt, lay on thick with the acronyms.

#7 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-14 08:20 PM

So, it was flying itself.. directly into two occupied lanes.

#8 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2025-02-14 08:24 PM

Isn't automation great?

#9 | Posted by sentinel at 2025-02-14 09:09 PM

Those white pilots are so full of themselves they don't listen to instructions and endanger everyone with their issues.

#10 | Posted by fresno500 at 2025-02-14 10:06 PM

#10 So, the color of their skin caused the accident?

#11 | Posted by BellRinger at 2025-02-14 10:07 PM

Why yes, I think that's the prevailing theory.

#12 | Posted by fresno500 at 2025-02-14 10:10 PM

No, it really isn't.

#13 | Posted by BellRinger at 2025-02-14 10:11 PM

Indications are he CRJ saw the chopper at the last second and tried to evade, but the chopper shows no sign of ever seeing the jet.

Long line of things lined up for a bad outcome by the sounds of it.

#14 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-14 10:15 PM

I read today they are saying the tower gave the instruction to "go behind" 17 seconds before the crash.

But the copter pilot was talking and didn't receive the message.

The towers message was "stepped on" as they say.

I can see it now.

People are gonna say she was too busy gabbing to listen.

Too soon?

#15 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-14 11:26 PM

Actually...I have a suspicion that is actually pretty bad. I do wonder.

This was a training flight path in use for a long time and the last 2 weeks had had close calls with aircraft.

Is it possible this flight path was deliberate training flight for helicopter pilots for practice in more congested areas?

You know...nothing at all would surprise me anymore.

#16 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-14 11:33 PM

I read this particular flight path was training to get key government officials out of DC.

#17 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-14 11:37 PM

MAGA s*&^bags have made that necessary.

#18 | Posted by jpw at 2025-02-14 11:43 PM

Lawmakers liked the proximity of the Ronald Reagan airport that allowed for quick access to the Capitol, White House, and other key locations.

Some were advocating for expanding the airport and others wanted to see it closed or partially closed for safety concerns.

#19 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-14 11:51 PM

But the copter pilot was talking and didn't receive the message.

The pilot flying was not the one using the radio. The pilot was flying, the Instructor Pilot was managing the radio.

#20 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-15 12:28 AM

@#14 ... Long line of things lined up for a bad outcome by the sounds of it. ...

But, but, but... Pres Trump said the crash was due to DEI. When asked how he knew that, he said ~Common sense. I have common sense.~


#21 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-02-15 12:24 PM

Common sense

Common sense says an airliner that is 20 seconds from touchdown should not have any other traffic anywhere near it.

#22 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-15 12:35 PM

That might be common sense, but that airport is too crowded to provide that much leeway. It is to busy, too many physical obstructions, and to many restrictions that funnel traffic into confined pathways. . There has been a push to close it for decades, exacercerbated by the Air Florida crash. Meembers of Congress (who enjoy the conveninece) overuled that. I recall when, for a time, airlines were prohbited from scheduling connecting flights via National, or use it as a hub. Congress didnt like that either, because less flights coming through meant less flexibility for their schedules. My family members won't fly into or out of that airport. Too scary.

#23 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2025-02-15 06:51 PM

Was it Biden that pushed the reckless stupid policy of allowing military helicopters to run flight paths and approaches near and into approach conflicts with Washington National? If the possibility of inaccurate flight path and altitude readings exist on these helicopters, then that routing should be banned long ago as a huge potential conflict.

#24 | Posted by Robson at 2025-02-15 07:14 PM

Congress didnt like that either, because less flights coming through meant less flexibility for their schedules.

That does seem to be one of the underlying themes in this investigation. VIPs wanting what they want.

#25 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-15 07:50 PM

"Was it Biden that pushed the reckless stupid policy of allowing military helicopters to run flight paths and approaches near and into approach conflicts with Washington National?"

Sure. Biden personally decided everything.

Biden even decided the color of toilet paper in the Union 76 gas stations.

Idiot.

#26 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-02-16 01:57 PM

It's both SO telling and SO funny that rwingers have go no defense of DJT other than, "But... but... Biden!".

It's like the 5 year old who says, "But, Mommy... little Johnny did it, too!".

They are incapable of taking responsibility for their own mistakes.

#27 | Posted by Corky at 2025-02-16 02:02 PM

Actually...I have a suspicion that is actually pretty bad. I do wonder.
This was a training flight path in use for a long time and the last 2 weeks had had close calls with aircraft.
Is it possible this flight path was deliberate training flight for helicopter pilots for practice in more congested areas?
You know...nothing at all would surprise me anymore.
#16 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-14 11:33 PM

Logical. These "professionals" didn't seem to notice a "perfect storm". At least, their devices indicated no issues.. And now we're to assume these "professionals" just ignored each other?

Illogical.

#28 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2025-02-16 02:15 PM

Someone in our govt made the decision to allow this flight path which we know now and should have known long ago was an accident waiting to happen. Governments specialize in covering up accountability. Yet Presidents like to say "the buck stops here". Those that pushed this need to be exposed.

Hard to believe they use simplex (instead of full duplex radio transmissions) that will block incoming radio traffic when a transmitter is keyed.

#29 | Posted by Robson at 2025-02-16 05:25 PM

Depending on who you ask, some opinions are the air traffic control system lost a lot more than employees when Reagan fired them in 1981.

Some say the system has "never fully recovered" in the sense that it never regained the level of expertise, efficiency, and labor-management balance it had before 1981.

Add to that modernization delays and recurring staffing shortages that impact operations.

Personally, if anyone has read my posts I was voting republican and changed to supporting democrats at that time.

This particular issue was one of two issues of the time that changed my opinion of republicans.

I believe labor unions still have a place in society although corruption has been a problem in some cases. While some unions have misused their power, that doesn't mean the idea of organized labor is outdated.

#30 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-16 09:22 PM

This is really starting to look like a policy and procedure thing.

#31 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-16 10:47 PM

#30. I mostly agree. Never was a fan of Reagan firing all air traffic controllers. Never a believer that public employees should be forming unions. Public employees deserve some protection but not tenure. Govt Unions become alliances with politicians.

#32 | Posted by Robson at 2025-02-16 10:50 PM


Hard to believe they use simplex (instead of full duplex radio transmissions) that will block incoming radio traffic when a transmitter is keyed.

#29 | POSTED BY ROBSON

You don't understand the problem of keeping older aircraft in the system. Many of the regulations are built around keeping these older planes flying within the system.

Europe has a system Text based, but I don't believe it would have helped in this situation.

There's no reason for the Helo to contact ATC, ergo the first calls from ATC to the Helo were heard. If the helo was responding it really doesn't matter. Finally the audio was not recorded from the tower, it was what was heard on Freq by observers with receivers tuned to the appropriate freq.

The biggest problem as I stated a month ago was the Flight Path with only 100ft separation is ridiculous. But then again LyinYav is happy I don't work for NTSB.

#33 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-02-17 12:01 AM

One,

"keeping these older planes flying within the system"

Sounds like what you're saying would be like asking Microsoft to write Windows to natively still run 16 bit programs or worse yet DOS apps.

Maintaining backward compatability can restrict technical advances if they don't draw the line somewhere.

Windows can still run 32 bit apps but not earlier. They basically forced people to get more current pc hardware.

Are you saying aircraft is still flying with older technology and ATC is obligated to work with it?

#34 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-17 01:10 PM

One,

Was the problem Ronald Reagan ATC is still using a system that's not updated so the helo had to drop back to Simplex?

Trying to understand this.

#35 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-17 01:20 PM

Robson,

"Was it Biden that pushed the reckless stupid policy of allowing military helicopters to run flight paths"

My concern is the word "allow" isn't the correct word but instead should be "deliberately flew" for training purposes.

#36 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-17 01:26 PM

Was the problem Ronald Reagan ATC is still using a system that's not updated

The procedures around the airport were not updated to consider the increased level of traffic. Missing a snippet of the radio transmission means little since they were likely watching the wrong plane to begin with.

#37 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-17 01:28 PM

Robson,

Not so sure I'd blame it on Biden.

Hasn't it been pretty well established he was already operating on less than a full deck when he became president?

Also, lawmakers have used that airport heavily out of convenience.

Whoever created this flight training has been putting lawmakers at risk.

#38 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-17 01:34 PM

Whoever created this flight training has been putting lawmakers at risk.

It wasn't just for flight training. There are 28 different agencies using these helicopter routes, the army being just one of them.

The Pentagon brass like to use the helicopters for personal taxis as well.

#39 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-17 02:07 PM

Redial,

What do you predict will happen now?

Just the usual knee-jerk reaction lip-service until the next news cycle or next major news event like maybe....I don't know...some jet lands upside down.

Copter crash? When was that?

#40 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-17 04:36 PM

What do you predict will happen now?

The NTSB will release a preliminary report in a couple of weeks and a final report in a year or so.

They will make recommendations. The FAA/DOD may or may not adopt them.

#41 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-17 04:39 PM

Redial,

Or do we have to wait awhile for the lawyers and government agencies to figure out who has the least power, is the most expendable and probably dead to blame it on?

#42 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2025-02-17 04:45 PM

Or do we have to wait awhile for the lawyers and government agencies

Probably. There might not be any government agencies left by then.

#43 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-02-17 04:50 PM

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