Claims that Black borrowers "don't pay back their loans" or that their repayment behavior is fundamentally different from White or Asian borrowers are not only inaccurate but ignore the complex, systemic factors that shape these outcomes. Such statements reduce a multifaceted issue to personal responsibility, disregarding structural barriers and historical inequities[1][3][4].

Why the Black Community Faces Different Variables

- Racial Wealth Gap: The median White household holds 13 times the wealth of the median Black household. This means Black students are less likely to receive family financial support for college and more likely to need higher student loans[1][4].
- Family Obligations: Black graduates are more likely to support family members financially after college, adding to their own repayment burdens[1].
- For-Profit College Targeting: Black students are disproportionately recruited by for-profit institutions, which often have higher costs and lower graduation rates, leaving many with significant debt and no degree[1].
- Disparities in Parental Support: Only 58% of Black students receive parental contributions (averaging $4,200), compared to 72% of White students (averaging $12,000)[4].

Study Limitations and Faulty Conclusions

The frequently cited Brookings study ("Stalling Dreams") is often misused:

- Misinterpretation of Data: The statistic that Black borrowers owe 95% of their original loan 20 years after starting college is an *average*, not a median, and does not imply a refusal to pay. It reflects systemic barriers, not individual choices[1][3].
- Sample and Scope: The study focuses primarily on Black and White borrowers, with less data on other racial groups. It also does not account for all variables, such as the impact of for-profit colleges or the full range of socioeconomic backgrounds[7].
- Causality vs. Correlation: The study shows correlation between race and debt outcomes but does not prove causality based on race alone"other factors like family wealth, school type, and labor market discrimination play major roles[1][3][4].

Systemic Racism: The Underlying Variable

- Labor Market Discrimination: Black graduates face higher unemployment and underemployment rates, and wage discrimination, even with similar degrees as White peers. This makes loan repayment more challenging and prolongs debt[1][3][4].
- Degree Completion: Black students are more likely to leave college without a degree, often due to financial strain, which increases the risk of default[1][4].
- Cycle of Inequality: Student debt both reflects and perpetuates racial economic inequality. The burden of debt can prevent Black borrowers from building wealth, buying homes, or starting businesses, further widening the racial wealth gap[1][3][4].

Oversimplified claims about Black borrowers and student loan repayment ignore the deep-rooted, systemic factors that shape these outcomes. The disparities are not about willingness or ability to pay, but about unequal starting points, discriminatory practices, and persistent barriers to economic mobility. Any analysis that fails to address these realities is fundamentally flawed[1][3][4].

41 | Posted by ScottS

The claim that "Blacks don't pay back their student loans" is misleading and misrepresents the actual data.

The statistic you mentioned comes from a Brookings Institution study, which found that 20 years after starting college, the average Black borrower still owes about 95% of their original loan, while the average White borrower has paid down most of their debt. This does not mean Black borrowers refuse to pay; it means they face more barriers to repayment.

There are important reasons for this difference:

Black families typically have less generational wealth, so Black students often need to borrow more and get less help from family to pay off loans.

Black graduates face higher rates of unemployment and lower wages after college, even with the same degrees as their peers, due to ongoing discrimination in the job market.

Black students are more likely to attend for-profit colleges, which tend to have higher costs and lower graduation rates, leading to more debt and fewer job opportunities.

Default rates are highest among people who do not finish their degrees, regardless of race or major. The idea that "low-paying degrees" are the main cause is not supported by the data.

It's also important to note that facts themselves are not racist, but ignoring the reasons behind the numbers can lead to harmful stereotypes. The real causes of these disparities are systemic barriers, not the personal failings of any group.

If we want to solve the student loan problem, we need to address the underlying issues, like wealth inequality, discrimination, and predatory college practices, not just blame individuals.

Address the crux of the matter: systemic racism. Until you do, you're spouting racist nonsense and misrepresenting the actual data. Context is important, SCOTT. Though not surprised you choose willful ignorance of said context.

#48 | Posted by snoofy

Yes, many have. One in particular whose research I read was Dr. Michelle Alexander and her book The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Era of Colorblindness. A seminal work that the likes of BOAZ (specifically) and SCOTT (presumably) have willfully ignored regardless of my push for them to read it.

#52 | Posted by ScottS

Oh good! Triggered you with context. That's progress!

It's true that Black borrowers have much higher student loan default rates than White borrowers; recent data shows about 50% of Black borrowers have defaulted at least once, compared to less than a third of White borrowers[1][3][5][6][8]. But it's important to understand why this happens, because it's not just about willingness or "not paying back," which is what you're clearly implying.

I'll keep offering context until you acknowledge it: Research consistently shows that Black borrowers face greater financial challenges, including lower household incomes, less family wealth, higher unemployment, and more responsibility to support family members[2][5][6][7][8]. They're also more likely to be first-generation college students and to attend schools with lower graduation rates, both of which make repayment harder[5][6][8].

So, yes, the outcome is that repayment rates are lower and defaults are higher for Black borrowers. But the causes are rooted in systemic economic and social barriers, not simply personal choice or financial irresponsibility as you imply. If we want a fair lending system, we need to address these underlying issues"not just stop lending to people who face more obstacles.

#50 | Posted by ScottS

So you do acknowledge context! Interesting your original posts were entirely devoid of it. Why was that? Are you willing to acknowledge the impact systemic racism has on this conversation? Because you obviously weren't willing to prior.

#54 | Posted by ScottS

Blaming "culture" for complex, global disparities ignores the overwhelming evidence of how history, policy, and discrimination shape outcomes. If we want to address these issues, we need to focus on dismantling systemic barriers, not on repeating harmful stereotypes.

#59 | Posted by ScottS

You're right that Black borrowers have higher student loan default rates, and that family structure and economic challenges play a role. But it's misleading to reduce these outcomes to "self-imposed" cultural issues or to single parenthood alone.

Let's clarify the facts:

- The most recent data shows that about 47% of Black mothers are single mothers, not 72%[4][5]. While this is higher than other groups, it's also important to note that the majority of single mothers in the U.S. are white[2].
- Single motherhood is linked to economic hardship across all races, not just Black families[6]. Poverty rates for single-mother households are high for every group, and these challenges are shaped by broader social and economic forces, not just "culture"[6].
- The reasons for higher single-parent rates in Black communities are complex and include the legacy of discriminatory policies like redlining, mass incarceration, and employment discrimination that have disrupted family structures and limited economic opportunities for generations[7].
- Despite these challenges, Black women are now among the most educated groups in the U.S. and are often the primary breadwinners for their families, showing resilience and determination in the face of adversity[2].

On lending fairness:
Advocating for a "fair" lending system means understanding why some groups face more barriers to repayment and addressing those root causes, not just cutting off access. If we ignore the impact of systemic inequality and historical disadvantage, we risk blaming people for circumstances beyond their control, like you're doing here with your referenc to Black culture.

Pointing to single parenthood or "culture" as the main explanation for economic disparities oversimplifies a much bigger picture. The data shows that structural racism, policy choices, and economic inequality are the real drivers behind these outcomes"not just individual or cultural failings.

If you want to talk about solutions, let's focus on policies that support families, improve access to education, and address the systemic barriers that have held people back for generations.

And what systemic barriers are those exactly?
#61 | Posted by ScottS

So glad you asked for actual context as it relates to the data (i.e., facts as you desrcibe)!

Plenty of that context has already been provided, but I'll reiterate anyways since you inquired:

There is extensive research showing that systemic racism has created and sustained economic and social disparities affecting Black Americans. Here are some key examples:

1. Discriminatory Lending and Housing Policies:
From the 1930s through recent decades, practices like redlining systematically denied Black families access to mortgages and homeownership, which is the main way most Americans build wealth. This has led to persistent gaps in homeownership rates, property values, and accumulated wealth between Black and White families[1][4][6].

2. Segregated and Underfunded Schools:
Because public schools rely heavily on local property taxes, neighborhoods with lower home values"often due to historic discrimination"have underfunded schools. This limits educational opportunities and outcomes for many Black children, perpetuating cycles of poverty[1].

3. Employment Discrimination and Wage Gaps:
Black workers face higher unemployment rates and wage disparities even when controlling for education and experience. This limits income growth and the ability to repay debts or accumulate savings[7][8].

4. Predatory Financial Services:
Communities of color are disproportionately targeted by payday lenders and other high-cost financial services, which trap families in cycles of debt and reduce their ability to build wealth[1].

5. Criminal Justice System Disparities:
Higher incarceration rates among Black Americans, driven by systemic biases, disrupt families and economic stability, further contributing to economic inequality[7]. Highly recommend you read The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Era of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander, as previously mentioned.

6. Legacy of Historical Policies:
The cumulative effect of slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, and discriminatory policies has created structural barriers that continue to impact Black communities today[5][8]. Again, Alexander's book explains this at length

These systemic factors are not about individual choices but about how institutions and policies have created unequal starting points. Addressing these barriers is essential to creating a fairer lending system and economic opportunity for all.

If you want, I can share more detailed studies and data on these points. Hoping you're sincerely interested.

but I would say incarceration is the tip of the iceberg.
#57 | Posted by snoofy

That's what the data (i.e., facts as described by SCOTTS) has elucidated. Yet, this is the portion of the data that folks like SCOTTS choose to ignore, instead relying of "Black culture" as the causality, without acknowledging the systemic variables that would have impacted said culture.

The government should be going after many of these universities who basically used their students to scam the program.
#66 | Posted by sentinel

My grandfather bought bonds with the intention they would pay for my college education before universities escalated their tuition rates. He thought the money he invested would cover my entire undergraduate education. It ended up covering the first year.

So, end thread?

The nice thing about selling blood prior to drinking is it doesn't take as much booze to tie one on. It's efficient.
#70 | Posted by BellRinger

They call it the 'happy hour hemoglobin hack.'

Oh and, BTW, been there, done that

Our President ran a scam university.
#73 | Posted by snoofy

OUCH! More significant context to consider. Well done.

Never heard of it but I like it.
#75 | Posted by BellRinger

Updated and urban version of the 4H. LOL

#77 | Posted by ScottS

It's true that Black Americans are overrepresented in homicide statistics, but it's misleading to present these numbers as proof that crime is simply a matter of individual or "cultural" failings, or to ignore the broader context. While you are correct that homicide clearance rates are low, nationally, about half of murders go unsolved, it's important to note that in cities like Baltimore, murders involving Black victims are actually less likely to be solved than those involving White victims. Lower clearance rates in high-crime areas often reflect issues like under-resourced police departments, strained community trust, and the complexity of cases, not just the volume of crimes or the racial makeup of those involved.

The overrepresentation of Black Americans in crime statistics is a real phenomenon, but decades of research show it is closely tied to systemic factors such as concentrated poverty, residential segregation, underfunded schools, lack of economic opportunity, and the legacy of discriminatory policies. When any community, regardless of race, faces high rates of poverty and disadvantage, crime rates tend to be higher. This pattern is seen in poor White communities as well, both in the U.S. and around the world. Want to see the data (i.e., facts as you refer)?

Black communities have historically been over-policed for certain crimes and under-protected for others, leading to both higher arrest rates and lower clearance rates for crimes where Black people are victims. There is also well-documented evidence of wrongful convictions, disparities in sentencing, and differences in how crimes are investigated based on race. I can show you the data (i.e., facts).

Ultimately the idea that "everywhere is racist" should not be used to dismiss the reality of systemic racism. Insteads it highlights how global histories of colonization, segregation, and economic exclusion have shaped outcomes for Black populations in many countries. Crime statistics reflect far more than individual choices; they are shaped by generations of policy, economic inequality, and social conditions. Focusing only on the numbers without context ignores the root causes and leads to the wrong conclusions about both crime and solutions. If you're interested, I can share credible studies and sources that go deeper into these issues.

And it's telling that you're solely focusing on violent crime when nonviolent crime is most significant. Just to, again, reiterate: Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow demonstrates that the explosion of Black incarceration rates in the U.S. is not primarily driven by violent crimes like murder, but by decades of racially targeted drug enforcement and low-level, nonviolent offenses. She shows that, starting in the 1980s, the War on Drugs was deliberately escalated in Black communities, even though research consistently finds White Americans use and sell drugs at similar or higher rates. This led to millions of Black Americans being arrested, charged, and labeled as felons for nonviolent drug offenses, not for violent crimes[1][5][7].

Alexander argues that this system of mass incarceration functions as a new form of racial caste, stripping Black individuals"often for minor, nonviolent offenses"of basic rights and opportunities in employment, housing, voting, and education. She emphasizes that these outcomes are not accidental or simply a byproduct of poverty or crime, but the result of intentional policy choices that disproportionately target and control Black communities[1][5].

By focusing only on murder rates, one ignores the central mechanism by which the criminal justice system has marginalized Black Americans: the mass criminalization and incarceration for nonviolent drug offenses. This policy-driven disparity (not a supposed cultural or inherent criminality) is what Alexander identifies as the New Jim Crow, perpetuating racial inequality under the guise of colorblind law enforcement[1][5][7].

--end thread--

#81 | Posted by ScottS

LOL, nope!

First, your specific claim about murder rates lacks credible sourcing.

The assertion that "rich Blacks commit murder at 2x+ the rate of poor Whites contradicts established data. The most comprehensive studies (e.g., U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics) show:
- Homicide offending correlates most strongly with neighborhood disadvantage, not race or individual income.
- When controlling for neighborhood conditions (e.g., poverty density, under-resourced schools, policing patterns), racial disparities in violent crime rates sharply decrease or vanish.
- No peer-reviewed study supports your exact claim. The closest data (FBI SHR) shows homicide rates are driven by community-level factors, not individual wealth.