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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, May 21, 2024

Beijing has launched its most ambitious plan yet to rescue its property market, a development that investors have eagerly anticipated for months. But it's far from certain that the measures will work.

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"The package is centered around Beijing's adoption of a policy that has already been tested in a major city " asking local governments to buy unsold homes from developers and convert them into social affordable housing.

It also features a reduction in mortgage interest rates and downpayment ratios, and more importantly, 300 billion yuan ($41.5 billion) in cheap central bank cash to fund state purchases of unsold properties."

.

"While the urgency is welcome, experts say the current package may be far too small in scale to be effective and could suffer problems with funding.

According to Goldman Sachs, the total value of unsold homes, unfinished projects and unused land in China is about 30 trillion yuan ($4.1 trillion).

To reduce the supply of housing to levels last seen in 2018, the year the real estate boom peaked, may require more than 7 trillion yuan ($967 billion) for all cities, the Goldman analysts wrote in a Monday research note.

That's more than 20 times the amount of funding announced by the People's Bank of China (PBOC)."

#1 | Posted by Corky at 2024-05-21 02:31 PM | Reply

34 Unforgettable Photos Of China's Uninhabited Ghost Cities
Published March 18, 2024

Extravagant monuments, spacious parks, modern buildings, and interconnected roads would all seem to indicate a bustling metropolis. But in China, there is an increasing number of uninhabited "ghost" cities that seem to have been abandoned after years of construction.

It is unclear how many of these Chinese ghost cities currently exist, but estimates put the number as high as 50 municipalities.

Some of these cities have yet to be completed while others are fully functioning metropolises, save for the lack of residents. The occurrence of these ghost cities across China has, unsurprisingly, attracted significant attention from international observers.

"All of them are bizarre, all of them are surreal. There's no other way to describe a city meant for thousands of people that's just completely empty," explained Samuel Stevenson-Yang, a photographer working to document this modern Chinese phenomenon, in an interview with ABC Australia.
allthatsinteresting.com

#2 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2024-05-21 03:16 PM | Reply

Here's a very recent tour of Beijing, Tiananmen Square, and the Forbidden City... what the tourists get to see is impressive. Though I think they even mentioned seeing abandoned properties.

www.youtube.com

They are touring the Great Wall next, I believe.

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2024-05-21 03:43 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Too bad China doesn't have a Dark Xi to lead their economy.

The US not only has the largest economy, but the quickest to overcome the Covid downturn.

#4 | Posted by Corky at 2024-05-21 06:46 PM | Reply

Another view...

Inside the collapse of China property giants and its far-reaching economic impact
www.cnbctv18.com

... From abandoned malls to sparsely occupied buildings and desolate construction sites, the scene paints a poignant picture of the challenges gripping China's economic landscape.

What's wrong with China's real estate sector?

Vanke, China's largest property developer, has managed to survive the property downturn till now, but escaping the long-term real estate crisis seems questionable. While the stock has slumped over 35% so far this year, global credit rating agency S&P Global Ratings slashed the company's rating by three notches in April. This was followed by Moody's Ratings downgrading the stock. Vanke responded to this move by stating that it could 'mislead the market and exacerbate unnecessary panic'.

"The next step for the company is repaying a $600 million bond that comes due in June," the Wall Street Journal wrote in its Even a State-Linked Giant Can't Escape China's Real-Estate Crisis'. It added that the company has another $5 billion of dollar-bond debt to repay before the end of 2029.

Similar to many other companies, Vanke heavily relies on pre-sales, a practice where apartments are purchased before construction is completed. As of September, it reported approximately 408 billion yuan in contract liabilities, primarily consisting of deposits paid by consumers for homes still under construction. Considering this, Vanke's financial liquidity may be less robust than it appears.

Vanke's shake-up could be the curveball that throws China's plans off balance!

"For real estate companies that are seriously insolvent and have lost the ability to operate, those that must go bankrupt should go bankrupt, or be restructured, in accordance with the law and market principles," Ni Hong, China's Minister of Housing and Urban-Rural Development, said at a press conference recently.

According to CNBC, he added, "Those who commit acts that harm the interests of the masses will be resolutely investigated and punished in accordance with the law." ...


#5 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-21 07:01 PM | Reply

Yet another view...

China's Economic Slump Is Here to Stay (March 2024)
time.com

... hina is in the midst of a profound economic crisis. Growth rates are flagging as an unsustainable mountain of debt piles up; China's debt-to-GDP ratio reached a record 288% in 2023. But even that eye-popping figure does not capture the uncomfortable fact that much of it was borrowed to buy assets that no longer yield enough income to repay the debt. This is especially true in the housing sector, where sales have fallen by a third since the pre-pandemic peak, and new construction is down 60%. This is one of the worst housing crashes in the world over the last three decades.

Many Western pundits and politicians view this crisis as a sign of the bankruptcy of China's leadership and economic system. But it is more akin to the cyclical debt crises that have plagued capitalist countries throughout history. An apt comparison is Japan's crisis of 1989, which ended decades of high growth and rising asset prices, fueled by a ballooning debt bubble. Japan's Nikkei stock index peaked in late 1989 and fell almost 80% over the next 13 years. Real estate prices fell for two decades starting in 1991. Neither of these major asset classes has exceeded the pre-crisis price peak ever since. Japan transitioned from being the fastest growing major economy during 1954-73, typically growing over 10% per year, to the slowest, with growth averaging only 1.75% per year from 1981 to 2023. China may be facing similarly prolonged difficulties. ...



How will Pres X fare as this crisis works itself out?

#6 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-21 07:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Housing is a symptom of China's economic problems - not the cause. The cause of China's problems was their government making it difficult to do business there coupled with Trump enacted and threatened trade policies. This caused the China + 1 manufacturing strategy which shipped out millions of jobs to places like Vietnam and even caused the tech onshoring back in the USA. Once this manufacturing slowdown occurred, it had knock on effect for the Chinese infrastructure construction industry - you simply don't need new roads, rail, or ports if manufacturing output is decreasing - you add the slow down in manufacturing + decrease in infrastructure spending and consumer finances went to ---- and they would no longer afford to keep buying the houses.

Once housing collapsed, the local cities basically went bankrupt as their revenue was basically from land sales to property developers - so, now even if you want to turn the infrastructure construction tap back on, it is not possible as the cities are broke.

#7 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-05-22 12:53 AM | Reply

@#7 ... The cause of China's problems was their government making it difficult to do business there coupled with Trump enacted and threatened trade policies. ...

Wow, yet another assertion by your current alias favoring fmr Pres Trump, with no substantiation whatsoever.

Since the rest of your current alias' comment seems to be dependent upon that unsubstantiated assertion, can you say, "quicksand?"

I knew you could.


#8 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-22 01:02 AM | Reply

"Wow, yet another assertion by your current alias favoring fmr Pres Trump, with no substantiation whatsoever.
#8 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

You can try this link - I assumed it would not be needed as we all lived through the Trump's trade war, which Biden was against until he did the same thing to Chinese EVs this month.

www.scmp.com

#9 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-05-22 01:07 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

@#9 ... You can try this link - I assumed it would not be needed as we all lived through the Trump's trade war, which Biden was against until he did the same thing to Chinese EVs this month. ...

Yup.

Fmr Pres Trump did start that trade war with China to help American workers.

But...

The US"China Trade War: Vietnam Emerges as the Greatest Winner (2022)
www.airuniversity.af.edu

... During the Trump administration, the United States employed a series of unilateral tariffs on various Chinese imports, inducing some unprecedented changes in US trade policy vis--vis China. As an anti-establishment outsider to America's traditional politics, Donald Trump, throughout his presidency, frequently obscured the boundary between foreign and trade policy, equating sanctions with tariffs, and effectively weaponizing trade. Trump administration's tariffs had one major goal, which he promised countless times to the American public: Lowering the US trade deficit with China. His tariffs, however, were hardly successful. According to the US Census data in nominal US dollars, the US trade deficit in goods with China during his term kept increasing from 2016 ($346 billion) to 2018 ($418 billion, an all-time high); it was not until 2019 that it decreased to a level ($342 billion) comparable to 2016's $346 billion.1 The meager $4 billion decrease in the US trade deficit with China from 2016 to 2019 is extremely underwhelming, since the US trade deficit with the world"including China"in 2019 was a towering $845 billion, which expanded substantially from 2016's $735 billion.2

Moreover, the tariffs' impact on the US economy was devastating, as "the trade war had cost the economy nearly 300,000 jobs and an estimated 0.3% of real GDP; the US companies lost at least $1.7 trillion in the price of their stocks as a result of US tariffs imposed on imports from China."3 Not only in stocks, but many US businesses also sustained real profit losses since many of them depended on imported intermediate inputs from China; with higher input costs than before, many US businesses raised their own prices to keep the profit margin intact, which eventually led them to "[lose] market share to competitors from other countries who did not have to pay" the additional tariffs.4 In essence, "the US companies primarily paid for the US tariffs, [and while] the US goods trade deficit with China had shrunk by 2019, its overall trade deficit did not," suggesting that the Trump administration's tariffs neither successfully lowered the US trade deficit with China nor benefited the US consumers and firms as President Trump would have wished.5 Taken together, the Trump administration's tariffs did little besides significantly increasing the US trade deficit with the world at the expense of the US economy. In this sense, the United States was unmistakably a loser from its own tariffs; the question becomes, then, who won from the Trump administration's tariffs? With more than half its exports subjected to these tariffs in 2019, China was obviously not a winner. This article, by using US import data from UN Comtrade and some of the conclusions made in United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD, 2019), aims to intuitively illustrate that Vietnam was the greatest beneficiary from the US"China tariff war in select product groups (HS 50-63, 84 & 90, and 85), with some assumptions. ...


... Moreover, the tariffs' impact on the US economy was devastating, as "the trade war had cost the economy nearly 300,000 jobs and an estimated 0.3% of real GDP; the US companies lost at least $1.7 trillion in the price of their stocks as a result of US tariffs imposed on imports from China." ...

Oh dear, a policy of fmr Pres Trump had a bad effect?

#10 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-22 01:17 AM | Reply

"#10 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

It is a trade war - both sides will take a hit. The net result is the current issues in China contrasted with the tech and manufacturing boom in the US started under Trump as a result of these policies. Further, the stock market fully recovered the by the end of Trump's term and there was no employment impact as labor participation rate under Trump was still higher than what Biden is posting now despite Biden claiming to have created 15 millions jobs.

However, the important thing is that your comment is completely non-responsive to the issue at hand after requesting a link. We were debating the impact on China - which you seem to accept now by no longer whining about it.

Lastly, you forgot to include your 'current alias' -------- so it is clear you are rattled and just trying (unsuccessfully) to save some face by making an unrelated argument.

#11 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-05-22 01:24 AM | Reply

@#11 ... It is a trade war - both sides will take a hit. ...

Yup. God to see your current alias admit that the US suffered as a result of the trade war fmr Pres Trump chose to have with China.

But fmr Pres Trump's trade war with China seemed to benefit Vietnam workers more than US workers.

From #10...

... Moreover, the tariffs' impact on the US economy was devastating, as "the trade war had cost the economy nearly 300,000 jobs and an estimated 0.3% of real GDP; the US companies lost at least $1.7 trillion in the price of their stocks as a result of US tariffs imposed on imports from China." ...

At least Pres Biden is backing up his tariffs with China with investments in US businesses.

That's a better approach, doncha think?


#12 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-22 01:34 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

I Like 'Em Big and Stupid (1984)
www.youtube.com

Lyrics excerpt...

genius.com

...
When I need something to help me unwind
I find a six-foot baby with a one-track mind
Smart guys are nowhere, they make demands
Give me a moron with talented hands
I go bar-hopping and they say "last call"
I start shopping for a Neanderthal

[Pre-Chorus]
The bigger they come, the harder I fall
In love 'till we're done, then they're out in the hall

[Chorus]
I like 'em big and stupid
I like 'em big and real dumb
I like 'em big and stupid
...


Trump loves 'the poorly educated' ... and social media clamors (2016)
www.reuters.com

... U.S. presidential candidate Donald Trump's declaration of love for "the poorly educated" in his Nevada victory speech lit up social media on Wednesday, sparking a battle between those dumbfounded by the remark and those saying it had been taken out of context.

After winning the vote of the state's Republicans by a wide margin on Tuesday, the real estate billionaire rattled off a list of those groups who swept him to victory: "We won with young. We won with old. We won with highly educated. We won with poorly educated. I love the poorly educated." ...


#13 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-22 01:48 AM | Reply

"At least Pres Biden is backing up his tariffs with China with investments in US businesses.
That's a better approach, doncha think?
#12 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

No, it is wasteful corporate handouts - just like he did to try to buy votes by giving MSFT a bunch of money for their WI data center. These companies were onshoring regardless - no need to boost their profits by giving them free money to continue a decision they had already made.

#14 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-05-22 02:34 AM | Reply

@#14 ... No, it is wasteful corporate handouts ...

Nah.

Tariffs don't go to corporations.

Tariffs are paid by the consumer.

At least Pres Biden, when he imposed tariffs, also dedicated money to help US corporations. No surprise your current alias seems to miss (avoid?) that aspect.

But if you really want to talk about wasteful corporate handouts, maybe we should talk about fmr Pres Trump's "tax cuts" that seemed to have benefited the wealthy and corporations?

#15 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-22 02:46 AM | Reply

Pogues - The Old Main Drag (1085)
www.youtube.com

Lyrics excerpt...

genius.com

...
[Verse 1]
When I first came to London, I was only sixteen
With a fiver in my pocket and my old dancing bag
I went down to the 'dilly to check out the scene
But I soon ended up upon the old main drag

[Verse 2]
There the he-males and the -------- paraded in style
And the old man with the money would flash you a smile
In the dark of an alley, you would work for a five
For a swift one off the wrist down on the old main drag

[Verse 3]
In the cold winter nights, the old town, it was chill
But there were boys in the cafs who'd give you cheap pills
If you didn't have the money, you'd cajole and you'd beg
There was always lots of Tuinal on the old main drag

[Verse 4]
One evening as I was lying down in Leicester Square
I was picked up by the coppers and kicked in the balls
Between the metal doors at Vine Street, I was beaten and mauled
And they ruined my good looks for the old main drag
...




Pogues are a fun group...


#16 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-05-22 03:11 AM | Reply

"@#14 ... No, it is wasteful corporate handouts ...
Nah.
Tariffs don't go to corporations.
Tariffs are paid by the consumer.
#15 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

No one ever claimed they did -------. Is your brain so addled that you can't even remember your own post when you said "At least Pres Biden is backing up his tariffs with China with investments in US businesses."? You know, I did copy and paste it in my reply so we would focus on INVESTMENTS - which you seem to think were a good thing until your latest brain fart made you forget your own argument, as well as being the subject of my reply. Good god you liberals are incapable of logic and debate.

#17 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-05-22 05:23 AM | Reply

Good god you liberals are incapable of logic and debate.

#17 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO AT 2024-05-22 05:23 AM | REPLY | FLAG:PPPPPFFFFFTTTT

How would you know?

Seriously... how would YOU know?

You're in the Trumpanzee camp.

Trumpanzee's method is... don't debate... or apply logic...

because that is what we elitist -------- expect.

#18 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2024-05-22 08:46 AM | Reply

Fmr Pres Trump did start that trade war with China to help American workers.

Sh*tler is vowing to put a 60% tariff on ALL products from China in a second term.

Think inflation is bad now...just wait.

Former President Donald Trump, who labeled himself "Tariff Man" in 2018, has made clear he wants to pursue a more aggressive trade strategy if he's elected in November. Trump has floated a 10% across-the-board tariff on imports, a 60% tariff on imports from China and a 100% tariff on foreign cars " including from Mexico.

www.cnn.com

Still, even if Trump used the tariff revenue to fund tax cuts, his proposals for a 10% tariffs on imports and a 60% tariff on Chinese goods would cost the US economy 675,000 jobs, wipe out 0.6 percentage points from US gross domestic product (the broadest measure of the economy) and boost the unemployment rate by 0.4 percentage points, according to Moody's projections shared first with CNN.

"If Trump increases tariffs as he has proposed, the economy would likely suffer a recession soon thereafter," said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's, adding that this includes the impact of very likely retaliation from other nations.

Here you go middle class...massive inflation to give more money to billionaires through tax cuts.

Don't worry it will all start trickling down real soon.

#19 | Posted by Nixon at 2024-05-22 08:59 AM | Reply

just like he did to try to buy votes by giving MSFT a bunch of money for their WI data center.

Like the $1 BILLION given to Foxxconn for the failed project on the same land that MSFT is now building?

Foxconn stirred a major buzz -- especially from Republicans led by then-Gov. Scott Walker and former President Donald Trump -- when it announced Wisconsin was among the places the technology giant was considering expanding to in 2017.

The news prompted lawmakers to draft a multi-billion dollar subsidy package in an effort to lure Foxconn to Wisconsin, which the company ultimately accepted.

Foxconn agreed to the deal in 2018 and then-President Trump came to Wisconsin for the groundbreaking.

In a memorable turn of phrase, Trump at the time dubbed the plan to build the sprawling high-tech campus "the eighth wonder of the world."

Like that?

The only difference I see is that MSFT is actually building there and Foxconn didn't.

#20 | Posted by Nixon at 2024-05-22 09:04 AM | Reply

Trumpanzee's method is... don't debate... or apply logic...

I am still waiting for sh*tler to back out of the debates citing something something something.

#21 | Posted by Nixon at 2024-05-22 09:06 AM | Reply

The only difference I see is that MSFT is actually building there and Foxconn didn't.

#20 | POSTED BY NIXON AT 2024-05-22 09:04 AM | FLAG:

Foxxconn built 1.4 million square feet of buildings. They were making masks and respirators at it in response to Covid.

Tony Evers rode criticism of the deal into the governor's office. Then he gave Foxxconn a better deal that guaranteed state incentives after cancelling plans for tv manufacturing.

"The new deal is actually an improvement for Foxconn, which had risked getting nothing in state incentives after it dropped plans to build flat screens to be used in televisions and other products.

The original deal specified that Foxconn, which is known for manufacturing Apple iPhones and Amazon Echo Dots at massive plants in China, had to build the high-end monitors " in addition to making the investment and hitting hiring quotas " to qualify for the incentives.

The company said in a statement that it was grateful that the new deal "allows Foxconn, like other manufacturers in the state, to earn tax incentives based on job creation and capital investment regardless of the type of products and goods manufactured." Foxconn said its $672 million capital pledge still makes it "one of the largest economic development projects on the books" in the state."

Now it might become a Microsft datacenter. It's convenient for them, everything is already built out.

#22 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-05-22 09:13 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

NIxon just slapped the shht out of Claudiot so hard the room's turned brown.

#23 | Posted by YAV at 2024-05-22 09:14 AM | Reply | Funny: 2 | Newsworthy 1

#7 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO
You can try this link - I assumed it would not be needed as we all lived through the Trump's trade war, which Biden was against until he did the same thing to Chinese EVs this month.
www.scmp.com

#9 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO

The housing crisis predates the Trump tariffs.

Frankly Biden's trade war is just as stupid.

#24 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-05-22 10:13 AM | Reply

Aw, come on... for Claudio, Trump is the air that he breathes, lol.

Sometimes, all I need is the air that I breathe
And to love you
All I need is the air that I breathe
Yes, to love you
All I need is the air that I breathe

#25 | Posted by Corky at 2024-05-22 10:50 AM | Reply

Foxxconn built 1.4 million square feet of buildings.

They invested a fraction of what they promised.

Foxconn had promised $10 BILLION with 13,000 jobs and was rewarded with the approval of $3 BILLION in tax credits.
They ended up investing $675 million and 1,450 jobs.

This is just about how every GOP plan turns out all the time. Huge promises and pitiful results.

#26 | Posted by Nixon at 2024-05-22 11:13 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I beg to differ.
The GOP Foxconn horrible performance in delivery far exceeded typical GOP deliverables. That, for the GOP, was a UUUGE success.

#27 | Posted by YAV at 2024-05-22 11:51 AM | Reply

Foxxconn built 1.4 million square feet of buildings.

That's cool, but mostly empty buildings isn't what they were engaged to create. And even though the tax credits were conditioned on the jobs that never came, the state spent enormous upfront costs on interstate expansion, utilities, eminent domain and legal fees that will never be recovered. Completely foreseeable waste of money.

#28 | Posted by JOE at 2024-05-22 12:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Completely foreseeable waste of money.

That's what the GOP does best.

Examples:
OK new immigration law
CA governor Newsome recall
Trump doubling costs to secret service protecting his fat ass golfing
The wall
TX drowning children at the border
Gov Chucklebees podium fiasco
J6
Etc...

#29 | Posted by Nixon at 2024-05-23 09:27 AM | Reply

I like how people skip the part where the Dem gov campaigned against the deal, then gave Foxxconn a better deal, and still failed lol.

#30 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-05-23 01:06 PM | Reply

Of course it was going to fail. It was the Republican version of Solar City.

#31 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-05-23 01:06 PM | Reply

the Dem gov campaigned against the deal, then gave Foxxconn a better deal

A better deal how? The renegotiated agreement reduced the amount of tax credits available to Foxconn by billions. How was it better?

The government waste on the project came in the form of up-front infrastructure, utility, eminent domain and legal costs , which were all out the door before Evers took office. The only thing he did was acknowledge the deal was a failure and drastically scale it down. But you can keep pretending this is somehow a Dem problem, just proves how ------- stupid you are.

#32 | Posted by JOE at 2024-05-23 01:31 PM | Reply

CNN:

"The new deal is actually an improvement for Foxconn, which had risked getting nothing in state incentives after it dropped plans to build flat screens to be used in televisions and other products. The original deal specified that Foxconn, which is known for manufacturing Apple iPhones and Amazon Echo Dots at massive plants in China, had to build the high-end monitors " in addition to making the investment and hitting hiring quotas " to qualify for the incentives. The company said in a statement that it was grateful that the new deal "allows Foxconn, like other manufacturers in the state, to earn tax incentives based on job creation and capital investment regardless of the type of products and goods manufactured." Foxconn said its $672 million capital pledge still makes it "one of the largest economic development projects on the books" in the state."

#33 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-05-23 03:40 PM | Reply

The real problem is that this isn't particularly unique. It's a Republican problem. It's a Democrat problem. Most states do it. The fed does it. Lots of failed big plays backed and subsidized for more debt.

#34 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-05-23 03:45 PM | Reply

Calling that "better for Foxconn" is debatable. If they did what they said they would do, they'd get billions more under the Republican contract.

The real problem is that this isn't particularly unique. It's a Republican problem. It's a Democrat problem

In Wisconsin, the wasted taxpayer money is 100% a Republican problem, so take your -------- deflection somewhere else.

#35 | Posted by JOE at 2024-05-23 03:59 PM | Reply

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