In a war for their very existence?

I call BS on That.

Ukraine could accept the loss of the Eastern Oblasts. The rest of the country could be part of NATO, minus the Donbass. National boundaries change through war all the time, as a student of history you surely know that.

Nobody wants to lose. NATO is driving this. They don't care about Ukraine or Russia, only Winning.

Ukraine is not United. The illusion of unity is propaganda.

Russia will prevail. Even if millions have to die. They don't give a ----.

Why should millions die for a few miles of territory that would have to be ethnically cleansed to be held and administered anyway?

It's just not worth it.

Maybe it has.

Donbass has at war with the Kiev Government for 10 years. Since 2014.

Russia has no trouble getting recruits from the new Russian Oblasts In former Ukraine. There is little terrorist activity against the Russians in the Eastern Oblasts.

Ukraine just wants them back because most of the industry and development is there.

Ukraine doesn't give a fig about the self determination of the people there.

They only want the Resources and industrial base. Not the local population.

Donbass would have to be ethnically cleansed to be held without terrorism and counterinsurgency. The people are a football between the West and Russia. Pawns In a game they don't control.

NATO is fueling this.

For little more than cynical trolling.

I dunno,what is going on?

Biden is still President,he didn't resign.

Kamala won't get in unless elected.

#15 That was Snark, but I treated it as not so. Biden is still the Man,for now.

Much of the resistance to the Kiev Government was local and not Russia.

If it was just Russia, why are the locals so invested and willing to participate?

Why did they vote to become part of Russia?

Given the strong resistance and will to fight the Ukrainians have shown in this war, if this whole thing in Donbass was just a Russian plot with no local support it wouldn't have gone on for 8 Years with local militias doing the heavy lifting against the Kiev Government.

I call BS on the "Russian Outside influence" narrative.

An Indigenous Rebellion, Backed by Russia, is more Credible given the facts.

Was the Maidan massacre in 2014, Government Snipers or NeoNazis?

The Narratives are totally Contradictory about that too.

Which narrative is the True One.

Both, Obviously, can't be the Truth..

Which is the propaganda? What is one to believe?

I have read the various accounts. None of which are conclusive, by the way.

It all comes down to what is more credible.

In my opinion the Western Narrative is less Credible.

It's that simple.

If Russia was forcing the issue why are locals so willing to join up and fight their "own" Government?

Unless of course, they Hate their "own" Government and see them, and not Russia, as the problem.

You see my problem here?

The facts don't really fit.

Kiev is Western Ukraine. The Donbass is hundreds of miles away on the Russian border.

Ukraine was in Civil War. For 8 years. The resistance to the Kiev Government was not all just Russia pulling strings. The Donbass voted overwhelming for Yanukovich. They didn't support the freedom revolution, they supported Yanukovich. That's what civil war is.

Half of this country support Trump. We are Not United.

Ukraine was even less United than we are.

Do the people of the Donbass have self determination? The right to choose their own leadership?

Or is that something to be forced on them at Gunpoint?

Civil Wars happen. This started as a civil war. Russia just took advantage of something already happening.

It's still bad, but the people in Donetsk and Lugansk obviously don't feel Ukrainian. They think they're Russians.

And they're willing to Fight for that.

That's Civil War.

Ukraine has a proportional election system, it had numerous viable political parties.

Until the pro Russia ones were Banned by Zelinsky, by Decree.

It's not a two party winner take all system there. It's a parliamentary system.

By banning opposition Parties and ending elections for the Rada, Zelinsky became a Dictator. He is less accountable to the Ukrainian people than Putin is to the Russians.

At least acknowledge that.

If the Donbass people wanted to exit Ukraine and become Russia by majority vote? Is that legitimate or civil war?

Is it Self Determination, or Rebellion?

That's the Question,..Donnie.

#39 The Slovaks no longer wanted to be part of Czechoslovakia. They voted to leave,and become independent of the Prague government. There was no civil war. They just left,and created their own independent nation. Slovakia.

It can be done. States break up peacefully some of the time. Slovakia was the poorest part of the former Czechoslovakia. The Czechs didn't want them much anyway,they were more of a liability than anything else.

Donbass is the industrial heart of Ukraine, economically the most valuable part. Of course the Ukrainians don't feel the way the Czechs did.

It all about the money and resources,not self determination for the People.

Russia took cynical advantage of an existing problem in Ukraine.

The West does the same Crap, ALL THE TIME.

NATO and the EU just wanted to get Western access to Ukrainian markets and resources. To BUY the country for Western Hegemony.

Russia had other interests.

The Ukrainians are just Pawns.

#44. I hate Trump. I hate the Republicans. I vote Democratic in every election, my whole life. This is fact driven, not ideology.

Look in the Mirror, Bro.

You're the Ideologue,not Me.

Trump wants the Israeli's to just "Finish It" in Palestine.

Has my Posting history supported this?

The Ukrainian civil war began 8 years before Russia invaded.

The Donbass overwhelming supported Yanukovich. They wanted to have new elections. They had been scheduled. The Rada unilaterally removed Yanukovich in a lopsided and fraudulent vote.

The Eastern Oblasts revolted. Civil War. Crimea was considered of strategic importance by the Russians. They Meddled, for Sure.

Nothing the US hasn't done many times before, funding and Militarily supporting and instigating in numerous countries far less strategically important to us than Ukraine is to Russia.

Realpolitik is a Bitch.

It's Universal.

I never said I thought Putin was Right.

I said the Western Narrative about this war is BS.

Cuz it IS.

There is no justification for the Russians invading Ukraine. I never said there was. I said the Donbass populations wanted to separate from Ukraine and they do. They voted to leave. Twice. Russia just used that for cover when they invaded Ukraine itself.

Russia is playing the same sick games the US does around the world, it's cynical and gets a Lot of people Killed.

But seriously, if Ukraine wins back the Donbass, what happens to the people there? Specifically, the ones who see themselves as Russian?

The outlook for them is Ethnic Cleansing. Something the West frowns on unless it's Israel doing it.

Ukraine has a bloody and divided history. It's not historically one country.

The Donbass and Crimea are historically Russia not Ukraine.

Putin is Right about that.

Western Ukraine is clearly not historically Russia but a separate and sovereign country.

My prediction is that the Donbass and Crimea are Gone. For Good.

The final outcome will be Partition of Ukraine and the acceptance of Historical Ukraine minus the East into NATO.

Followed by 50 to 100 years of Cold War.

Could the Southwest vote to be Spanish speaking and independent from Mexico or the US? If enough voters there wanted to? Why Not? It happens in other countries.

Slovakia left Czechoslovakia without bloodshed. Yugoslavia became a Charnel House of Internecine War.

Ukraine is not the US. Europe is not America. The world has different traditions.

One size does not fit all.

The Donbass Oblasts wanted to leave Ukraine. The Central Government in Kiev wasn't Down with It.

Civil War. Then Russia seeing an opportunity to Meddle, got involved.

Then NATO got involved. See where this is going?

If everyone had just let the Breakaway Oblasts create their own Republics..like the Czech Republic did with the Slovaks there would have been No War.

But "Superpowers" just can't resist Meddling. It's their prime reason for existing.

The Czech Republic was not Meddled with because the West didn't want anything there.

Russia didn't meddle because the Slovaks aren't Russians and never were.

Yugoslavia was massively meddled with by NATO on bogus humanitarian grounds for access to the region, but primarily because Russia was too Weak at the time to do anything about it.

Maybe isolation isn't that bad of a Choice. Wrap our Oceans ourselves and mind our own business for a while.

It will certainly get fewer people killed around the world.

Even if it doesn't, it won't be Our responsibility or fault for what Others choose to do.

Russia is as Imperialistic as the US. But it's more Regional than Global in scale.

Spheres of Influence are the best hope humanity has for peace and not death by Suicide.

It worked for centuries until the collapse of the Soviet Union gave the West an unrealistic belief that the world belonged to them Alone.