Tuesday, April 01, 2025

DOGE to Rapidly Rebuild Social Security Codebase

What could possibly go wrong? The so-called Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) is starting to put together a team to migrate the Social Security Administration's (SSA) computer systems entirely off one of its oldest programming languages in a matter of months, potentially putting the integrity of the system -- and the benefits on which tens of millions of Americans rely -- at risk.

Posted by lamplighter at 09:32 AM | 47 COMMENTS | permalink

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SCOOP: DOGE wants to rebuild SSA's codebase in months, risking benefits and system collapse, sources tell me. The plan is to migrate all systems off COBOL quickly which would likely require the use of generative AI. www.wired.com/story/doge-r ...

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-- makena kelly (@makenakelly.bsky.social) March 28, 2025 at 10:09 AM

Comments

More from the article...

... The project is being organized by Elon Musk lieutenant Steve Davis, multiple sources who were not given permission to talk to the media tell WIRED, and aims to migrate all SSA systems off COBOL, one of the first common business-oriented programming languages, and onto a more modern replacement like Java within a scheduled tight timeframe of a few months.

Under any circumstances, a migration of this size and scale would be a massive undertaking, experts tell WIRED, but the expedited deadline runs the risk of obstructing payments to the more than 65 million people in the US currently receiving Social Security benefits.

"Of course one of the big risks is not underpayment or overpayment per se but [it's also] not paying someone at all and not knowing about it. The invisible errors and omissions," an SSA technologist tells WIRED. ...


#1 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-03-29 05:54 PM

More from the article...

... SSA has been under increasing scrutiny from President Donald Trump's administration. In February, Musk took aim at SSA, falsely claiming that the agency was rife with fraud.

Specifically, Musk pointed to data he allegedly pulled from the system that showed 150-year-olds in the US were receiving benefits, something that isn't actually happening.

Over the last few weeks, following significant cuts to the agency by DOGE, SSA has suffered frequent website crashes and long wait times over the phone, The Washington Post reported this week. ...




#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-03-29 05:56 PM

This is something that should have been done years (decades) ago... but that's no reason to try to do what experts say is a 2 or 3 year job in a couple of months.

Unless of course one wants to disrupt services and discredit Soc Sec so that it sounds like a better idea to privatize it.

Which is the goal.

#3 | Posted by Corky at 2025-03-29 06:04 PM

@#3 ... This is something that should have been done years (decades) ago. ...

Yup.

And the, I'll say, reluctance of the GOP to provide the appropriate funding to do it caused it to be delayed.

I have always thought that the GOP just wants Social Security to fail.

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-03-29 06:28 PM

Unless of course one wants to disrupt services and discredit Soc Sec so that it sounds like a better idea to privatize it.

What are you talking about?

In 2023, the Social Security website crashed four times within a 10 day period due to server overload preventing millions of users from accessing their services.
Additionally, from October to December 2023, the Social Security administration national 800 number and field office system faced service disruptions leading to dropped calls, increased wait times, and unavailable automated services.

#5 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-03-29 07:43 PM

And the, I'll say, reluctance of the GOP to provide the appropriate funding to do it caused it to be delayed.

"appropriate" funding, doesn't exist in the Government, is the HSR in California appropriately funded?

What DOGE investigation has taught me is that the US government is full of crooks.

Consider the NPS survey, $75 million just to design a NPS survey, and $830 million to execute it.

I have written survey's using the enterprise license survey platform Qualtrics, it runs in the hundreds of thousands to a few million dollars per year, even for very large user bases. But not the "appropriately" funded NPS, no that was $830Million.

Do you even know what $830Million dollar is Gaslighter? Is that "appropriate"?

Even you Gaslighter, could write that survey for less than a $1Million? Its only 10 questions.

"Appropriate", you don't even know what you're talking about.

#6 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-03-29 07:53 PM

@#6 ... Consider the NPS survey, ...

So, then maybe DOGE should be targeting the NPS instead of the SSA?


What else yer got?

#7 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-03-29 08:00 PM

@#5 ... In 2023, the Social Security website crashed four times within a 10 day period due to server overload ...

Got a link?


thx.

#8 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-03-29 08:05 PM

- What are you talking about?

Sorry, I was speaking English again.

"Social Security is on a path to privatization, experts warn, led by Elon Musk's DOGE'"

www.marketwatch.com

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2025-03-29 09:38 PM

#5

Hey idiot, there's a difference between a website going down and replacing an entire database. Five bucks they ---- it up and never test the backup.
Thereby eliminating social security.

#10 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2025-03-30 02:59 PM

"Five bucks
#10 | Posted by LegallyYourDead"

I would take that bet but you would need to prove to me that you have 5 dollars first.

#11 | Posted by ScottS at 2025-03-31 07:55 PM

---- off ------.

#12 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2025-03-31 10:27 PM

"#12 | Posted by LegallyYourDead"

Angry you got your bluff called?

#13 | Posted by ScottS at 2025-03-31 11:06 PM

Rogue SSA
@alt-ssa.altgov.info

This is so bad. Worse than people can imagine.

When you work in our systems, you're generally working in dozens of separate programs that interact with the COBOL architecture. Every one of those would need to be rebuilt. Even if they succeed in migrating, no one would be able to do their jobs.

bsky.app

#14 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2025-04-01 09:41 AM

The life insurance admin system I work on is written entirely in COBOL. Several few years ago, they tried to convert it to Java...and finally gave up after three years and who knows how much money. I've coded COBOL daily for 25 years and converting it to pseudo code a Java, .net or other high level language programmer can understand is not easy.

#15 | Posted by HeeHaw at 2025-04-01 10:00 AM

#1

No. There is ZERO need to move it off of COBOL. Systems like this are why COBOL exists.

What's needed is more COBOL training for kids.

#16 | Posted by DarkVader at 2025-04-01 10:27 AM

#16 - THIS. I run into this arrogance or stubbornness all the time. The attempts to convert or upgrade repeatedly fail, or end up not being possible. It usually takes a total rewrite, building the system up from scratch, and that brings with it a whole new set of defects. It always costs way more, and the institutional knowledge is lost.

The solution for us has been to write from scratch, take advantage of the new capabilities, run the effort in parallel, and run ths s**t out of it before going to production. But we do life or death things - which I will flat out assert this is for way too many people.

If they don't have one hell of a backup plan, parallel development, and a way to instantly deal with failures - then I have zero confidence in this.

#17 | Posted by YAV at 2025-04-01 11:11 AM

Java.
That's total garbage for a system like this.
That's insanity.

#18 | Posted by YAV at 2025-04-01 11:19 AM

When social security crashes they will be shouting from the rooftops, "See?" "We told you government was incompetent and was doomed to fail!"

A quote now more appropriate than ever ...

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.

P. J. O'Rourke

#19 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-04-01 11:37 AM

I haven't read all the comments yet, but I work in IT and actually at a COBOL shop.

To rewrite/implment an entire Social Security system in a matter of "months" is impossible.

#20 | Posted by brass30 at 2025-04-01 11:47 AM

IMO, the only goal for SSA DOGE is denial of benefits for as long as possible. My bet is that when they announce the roll out of their replacement masterpiece it will require in-person re-enrollment in order to claim benefits. Likely the re-enrollment process will be initial denial of benefits followed by a lengthy review process, also in-person. Why else eliminate phone access and reduce staff?

Let's face it squarely, we are viewed as nonessential drains on capital. The capital that they think rightly belongs to approved fund managers, CEOs and corporate governance boards.

#21 | Posted by Hickory at 2025-04-01 11:48 AM

To rewrite/implment an entire Social Security system in a matter of "months" is impossible.

#20 | Posted by brass30

No, it's not.

It's very easy and very doable.

...oh wait...you mean rewriting it and wanting it to work?

Nevermind. That's impossible.

#22 | Posted by Sycophant at 2025-04-01 11:49 AM

Also, this point was made above - mainframe and COBOL are excellent for handling large volumes of data.

To move to Java and web based platforms is nice in theory, and they can be used as interfaces to the front end or back end - but for processing large amounts of data you need COBOL.

If they take the time and effort to rewrite it - surely there is code that can be improved and interfaced with modern lanaguages - but you have to do it over a period of time - and that doesn't mean months.

WTF is the rush?

#23 | Posted by brass30 at 2025-04-01 11:51 AM

In 2023, the Social Security website crashed four times within a 10 day period due to server overload ...

You do realize stable systems encounter issues and support staff have to react to it and correct it.

Ever work in IT?

#24 | Posted by brass30 at 2025-04-01 11:57 AM

The SSA site is getting hammered. It was down yesterday, too. Trump-Musk are trying to destroy SSA. They've created panic. They are a curse and enemies of the people of the Untied States.

#25 | Posted by YAV at 2025-04-01 12:01 PM

Ever work in IT?
#24 | Posted by brass30

Yes, thanks for making my point.

#26 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-04-01 12:07 PM

Also, this point was made above - mainframe and COBOL are excellent for handling large volumes of data.
- Brass

Ridiculousness.

#27 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-04-01 12:09 PM

Yes, thanks for making my point.

#26 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

You have no point.

If an IT system is old and needs upgrading your solutions to fire every one who knows it and understands it and send in random right wing radical hackers to reprogram it on the fly without any planning or approvals by Congress and make it worse.

Yeah. That's just fricking brilliant.

#28 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-04-01 12:15 PM

Ridiculousness.

LOL. Why do you think the SSA is down often - because web based applications can't handle the heavy load.

COBOL/mainfram is excellent for processing large volumes of data. Insurance, banking, etc. still all use it for the heavy lifting.

#29 | Posted by brass30 at 2025-04-01 12:16 PM

"In 2023, the Social Security website crashed four times within a 10 day period due to server overload"

That has nothing to do with the Social Security codebase.

That is because of the web front end codebase.

#30 | Posted by snoofy at 2025-04-01 12:17 PM

That is because of the web front end codebase.

Thank you.

And that front end codebase is written in Java/HTML/etc and THAT can't handle high volume in instances.

#31 | Posted by brass30 at 2025-04-01 12:18 PM

People who have never programmed anything in COBOL are suddenly experts in COBOL?

Business as usual for our Dunning Kruger Presidency.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2025-04-01 12:19 PM

COBOL is a DEI programming language. Look it up. It has to be killed off by White Men.

#33 | Posted by YAV at 2025-04-01 12:22 PM

The SSA site is getting hammered. It was down yesterday, too. Trump-Musk are trying to destroy SSA.

And if they cannot destroy it then they will just make it unusable and inaccessible.

If you already have SS you will still get checks (maybe).

But if you need to apply for it or there is any issue you will just be bumped from the system with no way to contact anyone to resolve the issue. And if social security makes a mistake and claws back money directly from your account (which they do often) it could now take years to resolve it and get your money back.

By design.

#34 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-04-01 12:23 PM

I have one sibling that has dementia, and another that has moved out of the US to retire. I'm trying to decide if I'm going to start taking Social Security or wait. This is a disaster that is and was entirely preventable with very easy steps.

The GOP has refused to invest in what's required to properly maintain these critical systems. They still work because of the massive institutional memory of very good people dedicated to public service. Now Musk and his Muskies are going to come in and rewrite everything and it's free? What are they charging us for this "service"? Is the "service" to make it unusable and destroy it?

Show me the money. Who's paying for this? That'll tell me the motivation behind it and how likely it will be to succeed (and more importantly, what "succeed" means to those funding this fiasco).

#35 | Posted by YAV at 2025-04-01 12:29 PM

"our Dunning Kruger Presidency"

Hey! They all graduated top of their class.

Just ask them!

#36 | Posted by Danforth at 2025-04-01 12:29 PM

COBOL/mainfram is excellent for processing large volumes of data. Insurance, banking, etc. still all use it for the heavy lifting.

#29 | POSTED BY BRASS30

I did have a friend who worked at SS for a while.

It was my understanding that at the time he was there the servers were old Unix based servers in dire need of upgrades. Which was how he got a job at the weather service who were at that time transitioning from Unix based servers to Linux based servers. (Because they naively thought Linux was free.)

We had saying back then ... .

Linux is only "free" if you do not value your time.

#37 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-04-01 12:31 PM

At work I'm on Linux servers and Windows clients and servers constantly.
Linux is, hands down, solid, reliable, and stable.
It is way more robust and secure.
I detest having to do enterprise work on Windows.
Linux for me. Not even a second thought about it.

#38 | Posted by YAV at 2025-04-01 12:37 PM

Under any circumstances, a migration of this size and scale would be a massive undertaking, experts tell WIRED

This is going to be a massive cluster fkkk! And, coupled with many of the SS offices closing and reduced telephone support, SS recipients are in for a very tough time. How does something like this get fixed. Can't bring back the pre DOGE team because they won't know the code base.

Hopefully, the old production environment will be kept running "in parallel" so that when the new system fails spectacularly, the old production environment can be re-engaged. Let's hope they don't pull a Cortes and "burn the ships".

#39 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2025-04-01 03:35 PM

@#39 ... How does something like this get fixed. Can't bring back the pre DOGE team because they won't know the code base. ...

SSA will just have to hire the AI Consultancy Service that Mr Musk might start up. If that's the case, then I'd think that Mr Musk would not overcharge the SSA ...

#40 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-04-01 04:15 PM

Remember when Musk fired 70% of Twitter staff and the resident coding 'experts' on this site crowed that the site would crash and end the company within a week?

Maybe there is a lesson in that - not in how Musk fired 70% but in the resident coding 'experts' being 100% wrong in everything they predicted. Maybe a little introspection is needed to explain why you were so ------- stupid in your last prediction yet you still feel 100% confident now is in order.

#41 | Posted by ScottS at 2025-04-01 07:43 PM

Remember when Musk fired 70% of Twitter staff and the resident coding 'experts' on this site crowed that the site would crash

Your remember stuff from a couple of years before you joined this site?

#42 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-04-01 07:52 PM

"Your remember stuff from a couple of years before you joined this site?
#42 | Posted by REDIAL"

Did it happen?

#43 | Posted by ScottS at 2025-04-01 10:03 PM

Those Vampires are all over our beloved Social Security's neck and they're gonna ---- it up and I'm never going to see my Social Security after paying into it for over 48 years.

#44 | Posted by Wildman62 at 2025-04-01 10:32 PM

@#43 ... Did it happen? ...

Got links?

#45 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-04-01 10:39 PM

@#44 ... Those Vampires are all over our beloved Social Security's neck ...

If you may allow me to rephrase that ...

Those Vampires are all over our beloved and reliable Social Security's neck ...

thx.

I remain to be convinced that pointing AI at an old, yet reliable, COBOL code base will result in clean Java code that is nearly as reliable.

At this point, I'd usually say something along the lines of, ~but I'll wait to see the results.~

Unfortunately, those results cannot be anything but 100% correct in delivering Social Security checks to people. So, I am not willing to wait to see if it works.


Stated differently, is this the appropriate task to give to AI to solve?


#46 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-04-01 10:46 PM

You forgot the "accidental" loss of monies held in the funds.

#47 | Posted by silentwalker at 2025-04-02 12:01 AM

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