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Sunday, March 02, 2025

They Have to Fight Putin Without the US.

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European officials were shocked by the breakdown of the Oval Office meeting between Volodymyr Zelenskiy and Donald Trump, which ended in raised voices and angry bickering.

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-- Bloomberg News (@bloomberg.com) March 1, 2025 at 1:34 AM

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If I were Europe I'd start kicking out American military bases if I were them. We don't deserve their help anymore.

#1 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2025-03-01 11:54 AM | Reply | Funny: 1 | Newsworthy 1

If I were Europe I'd start kicking out American military bases

Those bases probably generate a lot of income. DOGE Lord Commander Elon might close them anyway.

#2 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-03-01 12:32 PM | Reply


Those bases probably generate a lot of income.
#2 | POSTED BY REDIAL

Lot of VAT.


maybe they really are going to be dealing with a bellicose Russia alone.

Why weren't they dealing with this before? Were they relying upon US tax money to fund their welfare state?
Lumpers love comparing Europe social welfare to the US "lack of" social welfare.
The US was "subsidizing" Europes social programs by taking up their slack on military spending.
Ironically Lumpers hate spending money on the US Military.
Lumpers now see, hopefully, that Europe having to spend money on their Military will degrade the social welfare.

It all comes full circle, which it eventually would when US government spending it out of control. The first thing that suffers is external spending/activities.

But lets get somethings out, feel free to add if you think I am missing something.
Three facts.
1 - The territory that Russia has taken is not going to be returned. It's gone, could be wittle down with negotiation.
2 - Ukraine is downsizing their own military manpower by continuing to fight a war they cannot win
3 - Ukraine will never join NATO
4 - Ukraine military capability currently is better than anything in Europe.

There are three possible outcomes
1 - Ukraine continues to fight a losing war, ending up with their defeat, and either it's complete annexation, or the installation of a puppet
2 - Ukraine gets other nations to involve themselves in this war, leading to a World War III
3 - Ukraine and Russia agree to a ceasefire, and peace negotiations. Ukraine accepts that the territory they have lost is not going to be returned. A buffer zone of sorts is created, similar to what we have between North and South Korea. Access to the Black Sea negotiated. This area will be maintained by European nations, with no American boots on the ground.

Which of these do Lumpers prefer, because this is a war that Ukraine cannot win.
Time to prepare for the next war.

#3 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-03-01 01:37 PM | Reply | Funny: 2

I might add ...

Nothing is, or ever has stopped Europe from offering Zelensky the military, or "security guarantees" he wants.

Commit them Europe, quit whining.

#4 | Posted by oneironaut at 2025-03-01 01:50 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

Lot of VAT.

Well that's different from income.

#5 | Posted by REDIAL at 2025-03-01 02:07 PM | Reply

- I might add ...

You might, but it's never happened yet. As usual you subtract from the collective IQ around here with your relentless blather.

Trump prefers the Civilian-targeting, baby-killing Bald Dwarf who has funded him for decades and helped him win two elections, to the patriotic Ukrainian President defending his country... who refused to help Trump manufacture Dirt on Biden, which helped get Trump Impeached.

That's what this Ambush in the WH is about, dimwit.

Zelenskyy would have been the FOOL had he accepted Vlad and Trump's word that Russian would not break a Cease Fire... just as the did in 2014.

You, otoh, are a Chinese Chamberlain bot, kowtowing to Putin's Hitler-esque threats to all of Europe.

And btw, Russia is a smaller economy and GDP than is Canada... and Vlad is not the suicide by nuke type...they are only important in the minds of feebs like you and Trump because bullies frighten you.

#6 | Posted by Corky at 2025-03-01 03:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

England and France have nukes. They'll be fine. Target Moscow and the bald midget's dacha.

#7 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2025-03-01 07:51 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Fake ----- Bastard forgot to log in as AFatPoofter.

#8 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2025-03-01 07:52 PM | Reply

Remember when Republicans told us were fighting the terrorists over there, so we don't have to fight them here?

Anyone remember that?

It was only 20 years ago.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at 2025-03-02 04:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

It was only 20 years ago.

#9 | Posted by snoofy at

Twenty years ago Bush was god. Now Trump is god.

Call it a theological shift.

It will be permanent until Trump finds a war that he likes.

#10 | Posted by Zed at 2025-03-02 05:14 PM | Reply

@#10 ... Now Trump is god. ...

I disagree.

A god is not an obsequious servant to another.

Pres Trump is looking like an obsequious servant to Pres Putin, therefore he cannot be a god.


#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2025-03-02 05:52 PM | Reply

Ukraine is downsizing their own military manpower by continuing to fight a war they cannot win -ONEIRONAUT

You are an idiot coward traitor fool. Ukraine has been winning just by keeping the fascist Russians at bay. 58,000 a month dead to take two kilometers along a 800 mile front and that is just a kilometer across where they progress. Russia will lose 10 million goons before they make to Kiev and before that happens the Poles will attack all the way to Moscow. The Brits will give them the bomb and the war will end with Ukranian flags flying in Crimea.

#12 | Posted by Wildman62 at 2025-03-02 09:53 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

The US was "subsidizing" Europes social programs by taking up their slack on military spending.

That the US is subsidizing a country is not news. One of the biggest receivers of US tax payer money is Israel. Do you think Israelis would be living the lifestyle they live without US tax payer money? In fact, without US tax payer money buttressing their military, they may have already made a deal with the Palestinians! Where's the outrage at Israel receiving foreign aid? These same people that are ok with Israel receiving subsidizes are mortified at the though of poor kids receiving a subsidy (aka Pell grants) to go to college.

The US subsidizes anything and everything that it thinks will advance its interests. Those subsidies purchase a seat at the table. Foreign trade is one way that seat is purchased. We allow countries to impose tariffs on our products but don't impose tariffs on theirs. Why? Because it allows those countries to grow their economies and become stronger. They become dependent on the US and want to curry favor with us. They also serve as a bulwark against aggression by our enemies.

Trump's popularity suggests that buttressing our allies' economies at the expense of US workers has gone to far. However, the way Trump is going about it suggests that he is leveraging the frustration of American workers for a more nefarious purpose.

#13 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2025-03-03 06:26 AM | Reply

Here's an excellent website regarding US aid to Israel, which is in the top five for medical care and citizens have universal coverage. No Israelis declare medical bankruptcy like thousands of Americans do every year: ifamericansknew.org

#14 | Posted by C0RI0LANUS at 2025-03-03 06:36 AM | Reply

Europe's Nightmare Is Here

So is America's.

#15 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-03-03 12:51 PM | Reply

"So is America's."

Moreso than Europe's.

The US is intentionally withdrawing itself from its position as leader of the west, and the preeminent influencer across the globe. So what does that mean? First, the US will cede it's influence in Africa and South America to the Russians and Chinese. "Thank you", says China and Russia. And iran too. As a receding power, the US will negotiate from a position of relative weakness. Columbia and Mexico are going to be less interested in pleasing the US once the US is no longer the leader of the western world. Tariffs, if they go through, are going to limit US companies ability to operate competitively in foreign markets. Now, instead of having a global marketplace, you're limited to what you can sell to customers in the US. I have an Amazon.de account. That will be gone when anything I purchase is going to be n% higher than if I bought it from a European retailer. Even defense, which has been one of the primary methods by which the US has been able to spread influence, could fade. Most of the NATO countries are buying F-35s made in the US, but that means that they are reliant on the US for parts and service support for those aircraft. What if Europe were to come into a conflict, and the US elected to withhold those parts and services? The two absolute worst cases would be the collapse of the dollar as the global trading currency. Every USan benefits from the fact that the vast majority of global financial transactions are indexed in dollars. When another currency replaces it, the US dollar will inevitably indexed to some other currency. My guess would be the EURO. The second worst case would be European countries developing nuclear weapons. Since the end of WWII, the US has provided strategic nuclear deterrence for European partners. This was done in large part to limit the development of nuclear weapons in places like Europe, South Korea, and Japan. Without having a reliable partner to provide that defense, I think Europe would being to question that position. Especially those in the east that the revanchists want to swallow up.

For Europe, this is an opportunity. Europe is at an inflection point, where the EU and partners could work to fill in those vacancies left by the departure of the US. It will almost certainly require rebalancing domestic priorities, but the success of that is dependent really on what the citizens of those European states want.

#16 | Posted by madbomber at 2025-03-03 02:24 PM | Reply

"These same people that are ok with Israel receiving subsidizes are mortified at the though of poor kids receiving a subsidy (aka Pell grants) to go to college."

This is true of almost everywhere.

I'm sure Israel would be just as willing to accept Russian aid. I saw this quite a bit when I was doing counter-drug stuff. Country-X would want to buy F-16s, but the US would block it as a function of Leahy vetting. Because at some point country-x had thrown commies out of helicopters, or may shoot down drug traffickers with the F-16s. So what happens? Russia and China step in, offer a similar product + the logistics tail to support it, and they don't care if traffickers get shot down.

Kids recieving Pell grants does absolutely nothing to contribute to great power competition. There are a million other ways to scratch that itch.

#17 | Posted by madbomber at 2025-03-03 02:30 PM | Reply

Most of the NATO countries are buying F-35s made in the US, but that means that they are reliant on the US for parts and service support for those aircraft. What if Europe were to come into a conflict, and the US elected to withhold those parts and services?

Yup. It's already begun.

Is Europe's defence too reliant on the US?

As the UK and EU plan to 're-arm', how easy will it be to disentangle from US equipment and support?

European Commission President Ursula Von der Leyen has said that, at an emergency meeting of EU leaders on Thursday, she will present a "comprehensive plan" to urgently "re-arm Europe". She said member states must be given "more fiscal space to do a surge in defence spending".

Europe "can build up most of the critical defence enablers needed to deter or defeat Russia without US support within five years " provided the political will to invest is there", said Defense News, after a survey of security researchers and experts.

theweek.com

#18 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-03-03 02:40 PM | Reply

#18 - Oh that is going to really piss off Lockheed, Raytheon, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, Harris, Boeing, just to name just a few!

#19 | Posted by YAV at 2025-03-03 02:44 PM | Reply

"Europe "can build up most of the critical defence enablers needed to deter or defeat Russia without US support within five years " provided the political will to invest is there", said Defense News, after a survey of security researchers and experts."

To me that comes across as very ambitious. The US has invested heavily in low observability and multi-domain integration, and it works pretty well. Even if the EU followed that route, I think it would be difficult to replicate the technology on that short of a timeline.

"Oh that is going to really piss off Lockheed, Raytheon, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, Harris, Boeing, just to name just a few!"

Unless they move to Europe. If they stay in the US, they get to join the ranks of other large US companies that failed for not being competitive.

#20 | Posted by madbomber at 2025-03-03 03:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Oh that is going to really piss off Lockheed, Raytheon, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, Harris, Boeing, just to name just a few!"

Unless they move to Europe. If they stay in the US, they get to join the ranks of other large US companies that failed for not being competitive.
POSTED BY MADBOMBER

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'

#21 | Posted by donnerboy at 2025-03-03 03:18 PM | Reply

#18

The US has been "pivoting to the pacific" since Obama was president. I'm not sure why.

China is a bigger military threat, and there isn't a Pacific version of NATO, but China is solidly integrated into the global economy. The choice for China is which is more valuable, maintaining your place on the global stage, or gaining a trophy.

Russia doesn't have a place in the global economy. Not really. Their GDP is a joke. Their PPP is a joke. When was the last time anyone outside of Russia read a Russian book, or listened to a Russian band, or watched a Russian movie, or purchased something manufactured by a Russian company? They have zero cultural exports, and their whole national strategy seems to be based on building an empire that Russians feel they are entitled to. They don't have to contend with the potential losses that China does. There is simply nothing to lose.

And if we're being honest, the only reason we're having this discussion, is because Russia has nukes. Thier equipment isn't terrible, but they're too poor, or simply don't care to provide the level of training required to gain and maintain competency. Russia would prefer to spend less and throw more meat at the problem.

#22 | Posted by madbomber at 2025-03-03 03:22 PM | Reply

If I were Europe I'd start kicking out American military bases if I were them. We don't deserve their help anymore.

?
who do think is helping who?
I agree though, we should take our money and our weapons and our people all home.

archive.is

#23 | Posted by itchypossum at 2025-03-03 06:16 PM | Reply

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