"What was very shocking, very disturbing was the city of Moscow, where I'd never been ... it was so much nicer than any city in my country," [Tucker Carlson] said, calling the Russian capital "so much cleaner, and prettier aesthetically -- its architecture, its food, its service -- than any city in the United States."
Socialism and communism aren't the same thing. No matter how much you need them to be.
And socialism isn't a stage between anything.
CHAPTER XL : THE GRADUAL TRANSITION FROM SOCIALISM TO COMMUNISM
The Two Phases of Communist Society
www.marxists.org
ClownHut you are out of your depth, swim back from where you came
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fee.org - Joseph Goebbels' Own Words Show He Loved Socialism and Saw It as 'the Future'.
Socialists will continue to argue that Nazism was not "real" socialism, but the Nazi [short for National Socialist German Workers Party / Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP] propaganda despised capitalism and spoke like Karl Marx. - Monday, January 23, 2023
|----- One of the comforts of growing older is knowing that some things will never change. ... And the trumpets will sound at the Second Coming before capitalists and socialists agree on whether the Nazis were "really socialists."
The last item has always puzzled me, I confess, and not just because the word is right there in the name: National Socialism. If you read the speeches and private conversations of the Nazi hierarchy, it's clear they loved socialism and despised individualism and capitalism.
In his new book Hitler's National Socialism, the historian Rainer Zitelmann gives a penetrating look into the ideas that shaped men like Hitler and Goebbels. While it's clear they saw their own brand of socialism as distinct from Marxism (more on that later), there is no question they saw socialism as the future and despised bourgeoisie capitalism. ***
... These quotes represent just a smattering of Goebbels' views on and conception of socialism. One can see that in many ways the Nazi spoke much like Karl Marx.
Phrases like "we are a workers' party," "the worker has a claim to a living standard that corresponds to what he produces," "money... is the reverse with socialism," and "we are against the political bourgeoisie" could easily be plucked from Marx's own speeches and writings " yet it's clear Goebbels despised Marx and saw his brand of "national socialism" as distinct from Marxism.
So what sets National Socialism apart from Marxism? There are two primary differences.
The first is that Hitler and Goebbels fused their socialism with race and German nationalism, rejecting the international ethos of Marxism " workers of the world unite! " for a more practical one that emphasized Germany's Vlkischen movement.
This was a clever tactic by the Nazis. As the Nobel Prize-winning economist F.A. Hayek pointed out, it made socialism more palatable to many Germans who were unable to see Nazism for what it truly was.
"The supreme tragedy is still not seen that in Germany it was largely people of good will who, by their socialist policies, prepared the way for the forces which stand for everything they detest," Hayek wrote in The Road to Serfdom (1944). "Few recognize that the rise of fascism... was not a reaction against the socialist trends of the preceding period but a necessary outcome of those tendencies."
The second difference is that National Socialists were less concerned with directly controlling the means of production.
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"We are socialists because we see in socialism, that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our racial inheritance and to regain our political freedom and renew our German state" - Joseph Goebbels (1928)
"Fascism is the stage reached after communism has proved an illusion..." - Friedrich A. von Hayek
The main difference between fascism and communism is that communism required "total ownership of means of production" and fascism required "total control of means of production" - but both are socialist totalitarian (government above individual) regimes.
Nowadays we see it (fascism) in Vladimir Putin's imperial Russia and Xi Jinping's "communist" China.
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www.vaholocaust.org - "25 points of Nazi Party" - "National Socialistic Yearbook 1941" - Published by: Central Publishing House of N.S.D.A.P. - The program of the NSDAP [PDF]
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The program is the political foundation of the NSDAP and accordingly the primary political law of the State. It has been made brief and clear intentionally. ...
Since the taking over of control, the Fuehrer has succeeded in the realization of essential portions of the Party program from the fundamentals to the detail.
The Party Program of the NSDAP was proclaimed on the 24 February 1920 by Adolf Hitler ... and since that day has remained unaltered. Within the national socialist philosophy is summarized in 25 points:
...
3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4. 4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. ...
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically.**
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.***
19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. ... The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] ...
21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness...
22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. ...
24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us...: common utility precedes individual utility.
25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. ...
*** Adolf Hitler proclaimed the following explanation for this program on the 13 April 1928:
Regarding the false interpretations of Point 17... the following definition is necessary:
"...land which has been illegally acquired or is not administered from the viewpoint of the national welfare. This is directed primarily against the Jewish land-speculation companies."
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** "He who does not work shall not eat" - V. I. Lenin and the Bible.
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#79 | Posted by Corky at 2024-02-18 11:02 AM
Rather, Hitler viewed socialism as a political organizing mechanism for the German people more broadly: a way of creating a "people's community" - the volksgemeinschaft - that would bring everyday Germans (and businesspeople) together not based on their class but on their race and ethnicity.
This just confirms what I posted. That's exactly what is described by Goebbels (the only "true believer" of "national" Socialism in the Reich, really??) - as opposed to "international" Marxism / Leninism / Stalinism / Communism "real" ("good") socialism(s)?
From your www.vox.com article: "Whatever interest Hitler had in socialism was not based on an understanding of socialism that we might have today - a movement that would supplant capitalism in which the working class would seize power over the state and the means of production. (really??)
Here's a little bit of history: There was a period of "NEP / New Economic Policy"** from 1921 until 1928 in Soviet Union, proposed by none other than Lenin - to allow private property and business, particularly agricultural and industrial - as a way to meliorate economic devastation brought by the Great October Revolution of 1917 and Bolsheviks' economic policy of "War Communism (1918-1920)" i.e., expropriation of private business, the nationalization of industry throughout Soviet Russia and the forced requisition of 'excess' grain and food products...
** "NEP allowed a limited amount of free-market capitalism to promote a more efficient transition of socialism to communism, as was outlined by Karl Marx. Lenin hoped this would stabilize the Soviet economy until they could achieve more state control over the economy."
...
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All your links are just confirming what I posted - that "right-wing" Socialism (Nazism) is somewhat different from "full-scale" "left-wing" Marxism/Communism, but is nonetheless a [totalitarian] socialism ("total control vs total ownership"), just like Russian Bolsheviks were different from Russian Mensheviks, even though they were of the same party... for a while... or many other forms of socialist parties or factions. Just like there are Shi'a Muslims, Sunni Muslims, Ibadi Muslims, Ahmadiyya Muslims, Sufi Muslims (who can be also Shi'a or Sunni), Salafi Muslims, Wahabi Muslims, Druze, just as there are so many Christian and pseudo-Christian movements / sects, as well as some Jewish Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular sects. Thanks.
It's like saying that Communism was not really "socialist" or Marxist because it became "authoritarian" but initially it was "for the people" - just a form of "a political organizing mechanism for the ... [Russian / Chinese ...] people more broadly: a way of creating a "people's community" - the [volksgemeinschaft / "Sovety" | "Soviets"] - that would bring everyday [Germans | Russians | Chinese] (and businesspeople) together.
Yes, Nazism doesn't outlaw ownership of "means of production" (i.e., "private property and business") like Communism does but it strictly controls them and can appropriate them for "the good of the state / people / volks" at a moments notice. Yes, that makes fascism more economically efficient as Communist countries everywhere, including Russia and China, found out.
Control is not only economically but also politically more efficient than ownership of "means of production" as politicians can blame all their problems on private businesses and "record profits."
This is actually a well-sourced wiki on Nazism. en.wikipedia.org
Exactly! Thanks. A lot of "socialist" flavors (Marxist and alternates) were going around those days, especially in Germany. It didn't hurt the Nazis that leaders of many of those parties were Jews. The fantasy of non-totalitarian / "democratic" socialism ("for the people") is just that - a fantasy... like Barbieland.
Read those 25 points of NSDAP again. And read/watch "Animal Farm" again, written by an self-described socialist "George Orwell" (Eric Blair) - was the "Farm" communist, fascist or "socialist"?
That's enough on this.
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