One,

"Absentee ballots have chain of custody
Mail in ballots like those in CA don't.
It's pretty simple, but clearly beyond your education level."

Correct.

Absentee ballots have always carried some inherent risks, but because they are limited in scale, those risks have never been large enough to alter an election outcome.

Mass mail-in voting is a different story. Expanding that system to millions of ballots magnifies every weak spot such as lack of chain of custody , lost ballots, and the potential for mishandling due to human error or even fraud.

Moving millions of uncounted ballots without tight custody controls is an open invitation for disaster. Suppose a truck or an airliner carrying hundreds of thousands of uncounted ballots crashed and burned.

Presidential elections demand the highest level of trust and reliability. The only method that provides both is in person early voting, where custody and verification are built in.

Regarding voting machines, some are still in use that lack a verifiable paper trail.

Those machines should be banned outright.

Most states are moving away from them and adopting systems where voters mark a paper ballot, feed it into a scanner, and can watch their vote being recorded.

When combined with early voting, this system solves most of the logistical problems of getting people to the polls on time, while also improving accessibility and strengthening public trust thus preventing the kind of doubt and chaos that fueled January 6.

Dan,

Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean you're right.

Dan,

Last response in this thread.

It's a matter of scale.

What is tolerable in small numbers breaks down when you expand it to millions.

Dan,

Great...we may not have experienced a major problem yet....

However, moving around uncounted ballots is a disaster waiting to happen.

Building in labor intensive checks and balances to accommodate large scale mailed in ballots makes little sense.

You still couldn't be as reliable as in person voting and you could vote early.

Filling out a ballot that is read on the stop is the only voting method that should be used for something as serious as deciding the President of a country as powerful as the United States.

Sorry if you can't accept this.

Hum,

"the simple fact is that both parties will love this system when it works for them"

So far all I read from liberals is made up strawmen.

"Everything was fine...its purely political..."

Recall I was talking about the risks of large scale mailed in ballots a month before the 2020 election.

Alex,

"Bill johnson- So your thesis is that Biden stole the 2020 election"

I have never stated that my opinion is Trump actually won.

And I have always said my biggest concern is human error, however I am sure ballot harvesting went on too.

But I have never said I believe Biden lost.

What I have said is the actual true results will never be known that excludes human error and mishandling.

Alex...that's just another strawman saying I personally believe the election was stolen.

Clown,

"He's allergic to learning anything and simply parrots MAGA propaganda."

The fact I was raising the alarm a month before the 2020 election, might would mean MAGA copied the idea from me.

Dan,

"Are you saying five years later"

More like 5 presidental later you might have a point.

presidential elections...I mean.

Clown,

"Voter fraud only occurs during presidential elections?"

Don't be do obtuse.

What I meant was presidential elections, at least.

I would guess other elections would use the same voting methods.

Yet another strawman.

'You meant only presidential elections".

Eb,

"IF there was actual tampering with election, voter fraud, etc....then where it would really show up would be in the local elections."

Time and again I have talked about the logistics of having an accurate election with mail-in ballots on a larger scale. I believe a disastrous election is inevitable at some point.

When I mention mail-in ballots, I have always mentioned fraud as a side note because anytime you do anything that involves humans, someone will find the cracks in the system and exploit it.
Human error is impossible to avoid.

Yet another strawman.

Clown,

"zero democratic voter fraud"

What a tool.

You actually believe no fraud?

Every election has fraud.

Zero is an absolute.

Aug,

"Oregon's model is one every state should emulate."

Oregon doesn't provide the opportunity to vote early.

You still want to stick by your statement?

Early voting would provide an opportunity for people to vote at their own convenience and their vote would be counted immediately with less labor involved in handling the ballots and without the higher risk of using mail-in ballots.

Aug,

I always differentiate between absentee and mail-in ballots without a reason.

Absentee ballots are necessary for some.

Otherwise go to the polls.

Alex,

"yeah, go to the polls and hope russia doesn't call in fake bomb threats so you have to stand in line for hours twice."

Yet another strawman.

Aug,

Also, Oregon permits ballot harvesting in the strictest sense.

Go for it.

Oregon is dem run and no one else stands a chance.

Question...this is a moral dilemma.

If I collected 100 ballots from people who know nothing about issues or candidates but a ballot is put before them without being fully involved or made aware of the opposition and they "vote" how I basically tell them, did 100 people vote or did I vote 100 times?

Liberals aren't too good when morality gets involved.

Aug,

Definition of morality:

"Morality is the principle of knowing right from wrong and choosing what is fair and responsible, even when the law allows otherwise."

And forget the whataboutism.

That's just a strawman.

Alex,

"You don't know what either of those things mean."

Do you know what ballot harvesting is or do you care?

Trump wants to stop mail-in ballots and thus ballot harvesting and certain forms of voting machines that lack a paper trail.

He needs to include requiring all states to offer early voting.

That's morality....not simply politics.

But that's lost on some people.

Alex,

My biggest concern was and always has been more about the logistics and human error than fraud.

I keep saying this and people keep posting strawmen.

While I do believe ballot harvesting is a real issue, my primary concern is the processes involved in handling uncounted ballots and the risk of losing them and handling them. We shouldn't take this risk. We need to change course now in the name of fairness and a potential disaster in the future.

In person voting early eliminates all that and provides time to get to the polls if you want to vote.

Once again I am hearing about fraud being my primary concern.

Yet another strawman.

Dan,

"He's not going to do that."

That proves I'm not a blind follower of Trump.

I have my own opinions and don't live by his every word.

Laura,

"Someone shoot me and put me out of my misery. I swear. Haven't we beat this horse to death already??"

Why are you even on this thread then?

You DID notice the name of it...right?

Dan,

"Only if you assume only one party commits voter fraud.
Do you assume only Republicans commit voter fraud? Or do you look at the Heritage Foundation website, and pretend?"

Have you EVER seen me post that opinion?

No...you haven't.

Dan,

"Do you assume only Republicans commit voter fraud?"

No...you got me there.

I must confess I do believe dems commit voter fraud occasionally...

Lawn work to do.

My injury falling on an icy sidewalk last Jan wrecking my hip is improving.

Can do some yard work again.

Nixon,

"They want to make it AS HARD AS POSSIBLE TO VOTE"

Some states have ended 24 hour early voting and now require polls to be open only during regular hours.

That's not the same thing as eliminating early voting.

So...which states have actually tried to abolish early voting?

Nixon,

My opinion is if Trump went the route he is claiming with his Executive Order (which will likely not do much good anyway), my opinion is he should also include mandatory early voting in all states.

But...he's spitting in the wind anyway, but still I said my piece.

Nixon,

My opinion is if Trump went the route he is claiming with his Executive Order (which will likely not do much good anyway), my opinion is he should also include mandatory early voting in all states.

But...he's spitting in the wind anyway, but still I said my piece.

Donner,

"Good luck ginning up that fauxrage fake plastic Christian."

What does my religious beliefs have to do with this topic?

Yet another strawman.

I see why this website is yellow....the color of straw...considering how much straw gets thrown around here.

Donner,

"Trumpy has used mail-in ballots himself."

Yet another strawman.

Speak,

"You probably said he would leave office peacefully if he loses the election back in 2020 didn't you?"

No.

Need I dare write it again?

Yet another strawman.

Dan,

"absentee ballots permit harvesting as well, based on your parameters."

No...they don't.

Traditional absentee ballots are sent by request to a specific voter for as specific reason.

That's not the same as blanket ballots mailed out.

However, I'm sure some people will lie.

Back to the morality problem I mentioned earlier.

Dan,

Interestingly, Oregon is barely Democrat according to the voting results.

Because they have no issue with ballot harvesting, you might question how much that benefits Democrats to win.

Come on....we know the truth...we know who ballet harvesting benefits.

Dan,

You might could say, "that's why Republican are against mail-in ballots".

Well then...you can also say , "that's why Democrats are for mail-in ballots".

Alex,

Then states need that addressed.

You should know I would be opposed to inadequate or poorly run voting centers.

That should be fixed.

As if my opinion matters.

Clown,

"He's got you all jumping through hoops for his entertainment."

Hey...I'm retired. Something to do.

Keep in mind I was voting liberal when I began posting here.

I'm not a dyed in the wool Republican.

I don't hate liberals. I understand them better than you think.

The Democratic Party has simply gone off the deep end.

But that's changing the subject.

Speak,

Read my earlier posts if you want.

Will explain things better.

Donner,

"The best is yet to come."

But not for you.

Trump has lit a fire that won't die with him.

For thirty years conservatives sat quietly while their values were subverted.

Dan,

"Ballot harvesting is illegal in Oregon."

Oregon law does allow third-party ballot collection ("ballot harvesting") if you're outside the restricted zone (100 ft from elections office), provided you meet the signage requirement, "NOT AN OFFICIAL BALLOT DROP SITE"

To be clear, even if there was no fraud, I am still opposed to using mail-in ballots, other than absentee ballots.

I will not repeat my reasons. It is all through this thread and the posts I've made for years.

It is a disaster waiting to happen transporting uncounted ballots.

Laura,

Ballots are the currency of democracy.

You'd never transport an unverified load of cash and just hope it arrives safely.

Why should ballots be treated with any less care?

Dan,

"Where is your proof of ANY disaster?"

Every jet that crashes could have been transporting uncounted ballots.

Dan,

The exception is absentee ballots because they are a necessity.

Speak,

"You don't give a ---- about the integrity of democracy since you support a con man who tried to tear down democracy instead of admitting he lost."

Democrats propped up a president so unfit his aides had to run the country.

And Biden's final act was pardoning his entire family and their spouses.

That reeks of corruption.

Tell me again how that's democracy.

Speak,

"You cant deny trump attempted a coup"

Yeah, they stole Pelosi's gavel.

They were getting stuff to sell on ebay.

Not much of a coup.

Dan,

Calling Jan 6 a coup gives it way too much credit.

A real coup has a plan, a chain of command, and an actual shot at seizing power.

What we saw was a bunch of angry people storming around, grabbing souvenirs, and getting themselves arrested.

It got ugly and destructive and people died.

Some paid the price, but a well executed coup?

Not even close.

Alex,

"Tell it to the 5 dead cops, one by stroke from head injury and 4 by suicide right after the insurrection."

That's tragic, no question.

But people dying, as awful as it is, doesn't make something a coup.

Framing it that way is really just a strawman.

Alex,

toy?

Alex,

Ok.

When something not directly related is used to shift the focus off the actual topic, and we end up debating that instead, that's a strawman.

Dan,

"But Bill scored near the top! Just ask him!"

Truth is, I only finished 10th grade before enlisting in the military at 17.

My Navy entrance exam qualified me for anything except nuclear.

After service, I finished my GED in two Saturdays without studying and scored high.

Later, a college IQ test put me in the top 2%.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

As Kermit said, "It's not easy being green."

Alex,

"When I GIVE you an argument you didn't make, then attack it, THATS a strawman."

Ok.

Dan,

Ok.

Laura,

"Was you a swab jockey?? Just curious."

I worked in Avionics.