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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, July 09, 2024

Americans are increasingly skeptical about the value and cost of college, with most saying they feel the U.S. higher education system is headed in the "wrong direction," according to a new poll.

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... Overall, only 36% of adults say they have a "great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in higher education, according to the report released Monday by Gallup and the Lumina Foundation. That confidence level has declined steadily from 57% in 2015.

Some of the same opinions have been reflected in declining enrollment as colleges contend with the effects of the student debt crisis, concerns about the high cost of tuition and political debates over how they teach about race and other topics. ...


#1 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 01:07 PM | Reply

Tangentially related...

Bloomberg gives $1 billion to Hopkins to make tuition free for most medical students
www.npr.org

... Most students pursuing medical degrees at Johns Hopkins University will receive free tuition, thanks to a $1 billion gift from businessman Michael Bloomberg's philanthropic organization.

Starting in the fall semester, students who come from households earning less than $300,000 will have their tuition paid for, while students whose households bring in less than $175,000 will have their tuition, fees and living expenses paid for, the university announced Monday.

"As the U.S. struggles to recover from a disturbing decline in life expectancy, our country faces a serious shortage of doctors, nurses, and public health professionals -- and yet, the high cost of medical, nursing, and graduate school too often bars students from enrolling," Bloomberg said in a statement. ...



#2 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 01:09 PM | Reply

Cost vs. value is entirely appropriate.

Intrinsic value of higher education is not questionable.

"our country faces a serious shortage of doctors, nurses, and public health professionals"

That's why we need immigration. Or the destruction of the current health care model.

#3 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2024-07-09 04:48 PM | Reply

@#3 ... Cost vs. value is entirely appropriate.

Intrinsic value of higher education is not questionable. ...

I agree with both of those statements.

... That's why we need immigration. Or the destruction of the current health care model. ...

I disagree with the "either/or" aspect of that.

Why not both?


#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 05:51 PM | Reply

Turning it into a degree mill free from critical thinking is definitely the wrong direction

#5 | Posted by hamburglar at 2024-07-09 05:54 PM | Reply

@#5 ... turning it into a degree mill free from critical thinking is definitely the wrong direction ...

I quite doubt that Johns Hopkins University is about to become a degree mill free from critical thinking.



#6 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 05:59 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Re: #6

Truth. I'm more responding to the attacks by conservatives on higher ed, saying that it wastes too much time teaching "wokism" and "worthless degrees" aka anything that isn't physical science or business

#7 | Posted by hamburglar at 2024-07-09 06:41 PM | Reply

@#7 ... I'm more responding to the attacks by conservatives on higher ed ...

Oh that.

Yeah.

The GOP does not seem to like higher-ed, well, education in general, because education teaches students to think.

And a thinking electorate is anathema to the current GOP.



#8 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 06:54 PM | Reply

"Cost vs. value is entirely appropriate."

Yes.

"Intrinsic value of higher education is not questionable."

So, studying Phrenology has intrinsic value? That is what half the social science amount to at this point and as such, they have NEGATIVE value.

"our country faces a serious shortage of doctors, nurses, and public health professionals"
That's why we need immigration. Or the destruction of the current health care model.
#3 | POSTED BY LEGALLYYOURDEAD"

That is why we need to refocus education on degrees that bring value only and cut the nonsense at college and break the power of the AMA among others - this is not a reason to import immigrants.

#9 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 07:49 PM | Reply

@#9 ... studying Phrenology has intrinsic value? That is what half the social science amount to at this point ...

Got a link?

#10 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 07:56 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#9 ... That is why we need to refocus education on degrees that bring value only and cut the nonsense at college and break the power of the AMA among others ...

Got any specific suggestions?

#11 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 07:58 PM | Reply

@#9 ... this is not a reason to import immigrants. ...

If the US cannot produce the needed workforce, why not look to immigrants to help?

It's similar to corporations exporting jobs to other countries because US workers could nt provide the cheap, subservient labor the corporation wanted.

#12 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 08:01 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"@#9 ... studying Phrenology has intrinsic value? That is what half the social science amount to at this point ...
Got a link?
#10 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

Yes. Turns out I was wrong - more like 61% of social sciences has all the validity of Phrenology.

www.vox.com

#13 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 08:14 PM | Reply

"Got any specific suggestions?
#11 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

The US medical industry is controlled by the AMA - which has the primary goal of keeping doctor pay high rather than ensuring good medical outcomes. The key to lowering costs is to break their control - like what was done with dentists.

Second, we need to wholesale adopt technology - for example Taiwan uses an IBM Watson to aid in medical diagnosis removing the need to many doctors. The US could easily do the same.

Third, I am 100% in favor of making training to be a medical doctor 100% government subsidized with a commitment to stay in the field a set number of years post graduation as well as completely reforming the medical residencies which amount to hazing. Having doctors work extremely long hours when they are not yet fully competent just leads to more medical mistakes and is only in place today as a hazing mechanism to discourage people from entering the field.

#14 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 08:21 PM | Reply

@#13 ... Turns out I was wrong - ...

Lots of opinions in that article.

But it does show that science is looking at and evaluating itself, likely for the benefit of being better in the future. That's A Good Thing.

Thanks for citing that.



#15 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 08:29 PM | Reply

@#14v ... The US medical industry is controlled by the AMA ...

Controlled by medical professionals?

You'd rather it be controlled by the GOP?

That aside.

The healthcare industry is being taken over by vigorously for-profit private equity.

Medical professionals are not the problem, they are the solution.


#16 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 08:36 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Controlled by medical professionals?

No the AMA.

AMA controls number of doctors, and specialties.

#17 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-07-09 08:42 PM | Reply

Medical professionals are not the problem, they are the solution.
- gaslighter

Compare the US Dr wage to the Canadian Dr wage.

The help is feeding at the trough and blaming insurance.

#18 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-07-09 08:43 PM | Reply

"Thanks for citing that.
#15 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

I have to ask - were you unaware of this? This was actually a huge story when it first was reported so I am kinda surprised if you didn't already know about it.

#19 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 08:47 PM | Reply

"AMA controls number of doctors, and specialties.
#17 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT"

Correct - compounding the issue was the university system which encouraged female and DEI students at the expense of male students. For the DEI students, they have much lower graduation rates as they cannot pass the basic competency tests (this was recently shown in the UCLA data) and for the female candidates - they have a much higher % choose to move to part-time status once they have kids. I do not disagree with their choice to prioritize their families - but, it is a reality that their spot in medical school could have been taken by an equally if not more qualified male candidate that would work full time.

Again, the AMA fully encourages this as it creates a shortage of doctors and keeps wages high. If you know any actual doctors, you will hear this exact same thing from them.

#20 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 08:53 PM | Reply

I will just post this now in support of my #20.

Women choose part-time:
www.aamc.org(30.6%25%20versus%204.6%25).

"According to the research, within six years of completing training, 22.6% of women physicians were not working full-time compared to 3.6% of male physicians. The gap between men and women expands for those with and without children (30.6% versus 4.6%)."

UCLA DEI problem:
"I don't know how some of these students are going to be junior doctors," one unnamed UCLA professor told him. "Faculty are seeing a shocking decline in knowledge of medical students."
www.theatlantic.com

#21 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 08:58 PM | Reply

@#19 ... were you unaware of this? This was actually a huge story when it first was reported so I am kinda surprised if you didn't already know about it. ...

When did I ever say I was all-knowledgeable?

Indeed, I have often said I come to this most august site to learn.

That aside...

Yes, I have often seen opinion articles questioning the scientific process. The GOP seems to love 'em.

The real question to ask is whether or not the scientific process improves itself as a result of valid criticism (emphasis upon "valid").

In my view, it does.

So, what else yer got?


#22 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 09:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#20 ... compounding the issue was the university system which encouraged female and DEI students at the expense of male students. ...

As soon as your current alias goes there (i.e., blaming DEI) you are entering politics, which I say should not belong in a medical discussion.

What else yer got?

#23 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 09:04 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#23

I would say it's not DEI.

But that higher education doesn't prepare one for a job.

Except STEM.

#24 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-07-09 09:07 PM | Reply

The real question to ask is whether or not the scientific process improves itself as a result of valid criticism (emphasis upon "valid").
- gaslighter

Scientific process doesn't change.

Anyone with an engineering degree would understand that.

#25 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-07-09 09:09 PM | Reply

"When did I ever say I was all-knowledgeable?
Indeed, I have often said I come to this most august site to learn.
#22 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

This was an honest question and not meant to be a gotcha.

I am honestly asking as so many of the things I post assume the readers of the post have background on topics I assume to be general knowledge (hence, no need to link). I think I will have to reassess what I include as general knowledge.

#26 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 09:16 PM | Reply

"As soon as your current alias goes there (i.e., blaming DEI) you are entering politics
#23 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

It is simply pointing out the data as was recently released by UCLA. The quality of doctors they are producing has decreased (along with their medical school ranking) as a result of embracing DEI. Again, this is not a matter up for debate as an opinion - it is a fact.

The same goes with women become part time doctors at much higher rates than males - again, not an opinion. This is a fact.

Also, it is fact that both of these factors have increased the doctor shortage in the US. The part time female doctor issue probably removed 5-7% of doctor hours from the market alone and that will only get worse as the % of females as medical school classes keeps increasing.

#27 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 09:22 PM | Reply


@#27 ... It is simply pointing out the data as was recently released by UCLA. ...

Yeah, I read the cited Washington Examiner article.

Are Black patients being adequately served by the current profit-oriented healthcare industry?

Do Black patients fare better with Black doctors? (June 2023)
www.aamc.org

... Research shows that racial concordance can improve communication, trust, and adherence to medical advice. That has implications for health care providers. ...

So, the medical schools are trying to fix a problem the medical industry faces.

That's A Good Thing?

Their first attempt may be a stumble, but what about the longer term?

Appropriate healthcare for all Americans, not just Whites?



#28 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 09:36 PM | Reply

"Are Black patients being adequately served by the current profit-oriented healthcare industry?
Do Black patients fare better with Black doctors? (June 2023)"

Well, I think you just debunked the ------- talking point about 'what is a black job' from last week. That aside, the better outcomes assume that 1. the black doctors are qualified (which is going to be in greater debate as we move forward) and 2. that black patients tend to listen to the doctors more and take preventative measures if told by a black doctor. So, in feeding into this - you are creating systematic racism as this was a problem with black patients and NOT white doctors. And frankly, if you are so racist that you reject medical advice based on the race of the doctor, you deserve to have worse medical outcomes.

#29 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 09:44 PM | Reply

@#29 ... Well, I think you just debunked the ------- talking point about 'what is a black job' from last week ...

How so?

... that black patients tend to listen to the doctors more and take preventative measures if told by a black doctor. ...

So, the end goal, as your current alias states it, does not seem to be the ultimate qualification of the doctor, but whether or not that doctor can affect a successful outcome for a patient.

So, your current alias seems to be leaning towards, it is not the ultimate qualification of a doctor, but whether or not the doctor can provide a successful medical outcome for their patients.


I'd agree with that.

#30 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 09:53 PM | Reply

Claudia never matriculated. Sad!

#31 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2024-07-09 09:57 PM | Reply

"So, the end goal, as your current alias states it, does not seem to be the ultimate qualification of the doctor, but whether or not that doctor can affect a successful outcome for a patient."

These studies were done prior to the torrent of unqualified DEI doctors being released on the population. We will only start to see these impact in 3-4 years time. Unqualified doctors will more than offset an benefit from feeding into patients' racist tendencies.

"So, your current alias seems to be leaning towards, it is not the ultimate qualification of a doctor, but whether or not the doctor can provide a successful medical outcome for their patients.
#30 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

No, that is incorrect. I don't judge the effectiveness of the medical field if poor results are due to choices made by the patient. Thus, people that smoke and get cancer or that are morbidly obese and have negative outcomes because of that have only themselves to blame. That is no different from someone so racist that they reject medical advice due to skin color. They get what they deserve.

#32 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 10:05 PM | Reply

"Claudia never matriculated. Sad!
#31 | POSTED BY LEGALLYYOURDEAD"

Not only matriculated - but GRADUATED for BSB, MBA, and PhD - not that you know the difference between matriculation and graduation.

BTW, we are all still waiting on you to tell us what law school you attended. Please go and prove you are not the uneducated rube that your posting indicates.

#33 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-09 10:07 PM | Reply

"The GOP does not seem to like higher-ed, well, education in general, because education teaches students to think."

I would disagree. Colleges appear to be teaching students what to think. They should be teaching them how to think.

I have a tough time believing that colleges would be overrun would be overrun with students calling for the genocide of jews, unless it was being presented as a philosphy acceptable to learned people.

My example was much the opposite. I grew up in a very left-wing environment in Portland. It was education, specifically economics, that changed many of my perceptions.

#34 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-09 11:13 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"Thus, people that smoke and get cancer or that are morbidly obese and have negative outcomes because of that have only themselves to blame."

Or, people become morbidly obese and smoke as a result of the stresses incurred from being a slave in a bourgeoise capitalist society. It's not their fault at all.

#35 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-09 11:17 PM | Reply

@#34 ... Colleges appear to be teaching students what to think. They should be teaching them how to think. ...

One thing I noted about my college (and NYC high school) endeavor, is that it taught me how to think, how to approach and solve problems.


So, my experience seems to run counter to the opinion you proffer.

... I have a tough time believing that colleges would be overrun would be overrun with students calling for the genocide of jews, unless it was being presented as a philosphy acceptable to learned people. ...

Are you confusing protests with education?

#36 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 11:27 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

@#3 ... Or, people become morbidly obese and smoke as a result of the stresses incurred from being a slave in a bourgeoise capitalist society. It's not their fault at all. ...

I remain to be convinced that " It's not their fault at all."

What's yer got?

#37 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-09 11:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Are you confusing protests with education?"

The protests are happening on college campuses, comprised largely of students. The arguments of the protesters are not rational, and do not stand up to critical thought. They seem to be purely based on emotion.

Someone somewhere signalled that this is OK.

#38 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-09 11:49 PM | Reply

"I remain to be convinced that " It's not their fault at all."

Critical theory holds that momst social ills are the result of class conflict and oppressive power structures. It's a theory easily disproven, but one that is easy to subscribe to when looking for a scapegoat for their own failures.

#39 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-09 11:52 PM | Reply

"Or, people become morbidly obese and smoke as a result of the stresses incurred from being a slave in a bourgeoise capitalist society. It's not their fault at all.
#35 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER"

Outside of hippie drum circles, sociology departments and their brainwashed graduates and maybe "The View", I don't think this is a widely held belief.

#40 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 12:07 AM | Reply

"The arguments of the protesters are not rational,"

How so? I think that they are not only completely rational but they are consistent with how a majority of the world view similar events. What is not rational is how US media covers civilian deaths in Ukraine vs. civilian deaths in Gaza. What has to wonder why a different standard needs to be applied.

"and do not stand up to critical thought."

They stand up to it quite well actually. People throughout history have tended to support 1.) people fighting for their freedom and 2.) civilians not being slaughtered indiscriminately.

I think you are the one lacking critical thinking in this regards OR you are applying Maoist, Stalinist or Khmer Rouge ideas to justify your position.

"They seem to be purely based on emotion.
#38 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER"

Well, the wholesale slaughter and displacement of an entire country's residents IS an emotional issue - however, it is also a factual one so the reaction against it is not solely based on emotion.

#41 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 12:13 AM | Reply

@#38 ... The protests are happening on college campuses, comprised largely of students. The arguments of the protesters are not rational, and do not stand up to critical thought. ...

I do not disagree. But when did rationality become a criterion for a rational protest?

It is opinion, not rationality.

... Someone somewhere signalled that this is OK. ...

Someone somewhere signaled that this is OK.

That protests are OK? yeah, I'd say, OK to that.

Back in the 70's when I was attending college, I protested against the Vietnam war. Vigorously. Back then, I was called a long-haired commie hippie freak. (probably not a surprise to you. :)   )

Yeah, the school signaled that those protests were OK.

Those protests had little to do with the education I received at that college.

So, what's yer point?

That protests should not be allowed on college campuses?

#42 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-10 12:18 AM | Reply

""Or, people become morbidly obese and smoke as a result of the stresses incurred from being a slave in a bourgeoise capitalist society. It's not their fault at all.
#35 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER"

Outside of hippie drum circles, sociology departments and their brainwashed graduates and maybe "The View", I don't think this is a widely held belief.

#40 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO AT 2024-07-10 12:07 AM"

Read Madbomber's comment again and try to "hear" what is being said - think about someone saying that with the tone of their voice dripping with sarcasm.

#43 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-07-10 12:21 AM | Reply

"43 | POSTED BY BELLRINGER"

That is how I read it - hence why he did not earn a '-------' as part of my response.

#44 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 12:24 AM | Reply

@#43 ... try to "hear" what is being said ...

I do try not to "hear" what I want to hear when I read comments.

But your current aliases may have a differing view.


#45 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-10 12:29 AM | Reply

people become morbidly obese and smoke as a result of the stresses incurred from being a slave in a bourgeoise capitalist society. It's not their fault at all.
#35 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER

Thanks, Capitalism!

#46 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-07-10 12:29 AM | Reply

"Thanks, Capitalism!
#46 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK"

For the morbidly obese part - yes, that is due to capitalism. Long term, the obesity rate in a communist country tends towards zero outside of the Supreme Leader (see North Korea for an example).

However, for smoking, it was much more prevalent in communist countries as well as those that share the dual traits of 1.) looking like a homosexual and 2.) having strong communist tendencies. For an example of this, you can refer to the French.

#47 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 12:38 AM | Reply

#44 Ah. That wasn't how I construed your response. Thank you for clarifying.

#48 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-07-10 12:47 AM | Reply

"#45 | POSTED BY LAMPLIGHTER"

People interject sarcasm, snark and emotion when they type words. Sometimes you need to read between the lines a bit, or, if you are going to be literal accept clarification if the person claims sarcasm (I'm not saying that you don't).

Good writers are capable of writing in such a way to effectively convey emotion, sarcasm, humor, etc and not in the strict context of what is being said. It just comes across.

#49 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-07-10 12:51 AM | Reply

"you can refer to the French.

#47 | POSTED BY CLAUDIO AT 2024-07-10 12:38 AM"

Do you know why all of the streets in Paris are lined with trees?

So the Germans can march in the shade.

#50 | Posted by BellRinger at 2024-07-10 12:52 AM | Reply

@#49 ... People interject sarcasm, snark and emotion when they type words. Sometimes you need to read between the lines a bit ...

... or just talk to yourself.

;)

#51 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-07-10 12:52 AM | Reply

As I have said in multiple posts before earlier this year,
"we have become a Majority Moron nation"...

And God help us, if Trump wins.

#52 | Posted by earthmuse at 2024-07-10 06:39 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

This country has done everything wrong with college. We've enacted a system where the government has guaranteed repayment with no discharge in bankruptcy. We've encouraged college for every profession regardless of whether or not it's needed. This created an environment rewarding unlimited growth. And not just in academics, but unlimited growth in administration too help provide more and more financial aid to students.

The answer is simple. Means test financial aid on future ability to repay. Not what your parents made last year, but what your finances are likely to repay. Yes this will decimate the financial aid available to a whole slew of the arts. While the arts are absolutely important, aid for those should be done through charities set up to fund them. They shouldn't be funded by massive loans unlikely to be repaid. Encourage the hard, physical sciences, business, law, medicine, nursing, all avenues that have a realistic expectation of income and repaying the loan.

Then ... . Make student loans discardable in bankruptcy, and end federal backing. Blacksher should take as hard a look at student loans as they do any other loan.

Add the money pool dries up, colleges will actually have to compete for dollars, and trim the bloat. It's unreal how much bloat there is right now in colleges.

I am not even going to talk about too much "wokeness" because that's just a lie and a stupid argument. They aren't teaching wokeness and turning kids into indoctrinated automatons. They just aren't.

#53 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-10 10:26 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's funny to see a bunch of clowns who don't know manure from Majorca pretending like they do.

#54 | Posted by Angrydad at 2024-07-10 04:02 PM | Reply

But, then again, without these clowns and their idiotic input, the Drudge would cease to exist.

#55 | Posted by Angrydad at 2024-07-10 04:09 PM | Reply

Higher-ed needs to be apolitical education not Democrat promoted education as it has become. I will oppose politicized higher ed with every bone in my body and every dollar of my bank acct. Politicized government is anti democracy which is why Dems loved it.

#56 | Posted by Robson at 2024-07-10 07:05 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

And right on cue comes that idiot "Robson"...LOL!!!

#57 | Posted by Angrydad at 2024-07-10 07:38 PM | Reply

57. Angry Dad you remind me of a dem twitter poster from NYC who made a deal with lobbyists. Democrats will do anything for power. Bob Casey now claims he and Biden are good for secure borders and good for Americans when everything they do is make Dems powerful and USA corrupt.. Dems do not care about truth but promote lies. They want power first and America second. Sorry if that offends.

#58 | Posted by Robson at 2024-07-10 08:18 PM | Reply | Funny: 1

"This country has done everything wrong with college. We've enacted a system where the government has guaranteed repayment with no discharge in bankruptcy.
#53 | POSTED BY ABH"

It is a trade-off: basically, we have guaranteed access to student loans so poor people have access to college. If the loans were all private, poor people would not qualify as their families don't have assets to collateralize the loans. So, if you remove the collateral obligation - then you should charge different people different rates based on ability to repay the loan or the loan would not be granted at all. To avoid that, the loans were all now guaranteed by the government and in exchange for the easy access and much lower interest rates - they are now no longer discharged in bankruptcy. What liberals want is for all the benefits to remain (low rates + guaranteed availability) but none of the downside obligation and Joe Biden has effectively removed the downside with his vote buying forgiveness programs.

For me, the solutions is: 1.) loans should be guaranteed but the level of guarantee is based on the salaries attained by graduates FROM THAT SCHOOL and IN THAT MAJOR. 2.) Loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. That would fix 90% of the problems as the woke nonsense would go away due to falling enrollments. The only party that would be hurt by this would be that Starbucks would no longer have advanced degree holders working as baristas.

#59 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 10:31 PM | Reply

"So, what's yer point? That protests should not be allowed on college campuses?"

Many of the protests we've seen on college campuses have elements that would be right at home at some extreme neo-nazi rally? Protesting is fine. Calling for the extirpation of Israel, at least to me.

You may have protested the Vietnam war-many did. I don't think too many were advocating the destruction of South Vietnam and everything that went along with it. In fact I suspect many protestester questioned their convictions once the North took control and sacked the country.

#60 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-10 11:10 PM | Reply

"Outside of hippie drum circles, sociology departments and their brainwashed graduates and maybe "The View", I don't think this is a widely held belief."

YOu might find it to be quite common here. Critical thought is based on the notion that unfair power structures are what produces crimes and other ills. The perpetrators of those crimes being the real victims. You can use critical race theory as a baseline, but Herbert Marcuse and the Frankfort school didn't limit critical theory just to race. In fact race was just a more recent replacement for class.

#61 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-10 11:14 PM | Reply

"How so? I think that they are not only completely rational but they are consistent with how a majority of the world view similar events. What is not rational is how US media covers civilian deaths in Ukraine vs. civilian deaths in Gaza. What has to wonder why a different standard needs to be applied."

Had Ukraine launched terrorist attacks at border communities and sacked an EDM show within Russia, raping and killing the whole time, I don't think the global community would have protested Russia's invasion. It would have been something they brought on themselves through an act of terrorism.

Instead, Palestinians attacked jewish civilians, raping and murdering them, while supporters around the word demand the elimination of Israel.

For whatever criticism can be chucked at Israel, genocide of thr palestinians is not a legitmate claim. On the otherhand, genocide is written into the Hamas charter. From the river to the sea, there will be no Jews.

#62 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-10 11:20 PM | Reply

"They stand up to it quite well actually. People throughout history have tended to support 1.) people fighting for their freedom and 2.) civilians not being slaughtered indiscriminately."

You're literally presenting the position of Israel, Fighting for freedom and civilians not being slaughtered daily.

#63 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-10 11:27 PM | Reply

"YOu might find it to be quite common here.
#61 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER"

If by "here" you mean this website, I can agree with that. But, this website is hardly representative of the US as a whole. I think this site is about 90% far, far leftists. This site also tends to skew very, very old. It would be easier to explain many of their insane takes if they were kids aged 12-18 with no life experience. Instead, we are mainly dealing with hippies that burned their brains out on drugs and have been blaming their life failings on 'the man' ever since.

#64 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 11:31 PM | Reply

The site is yellow for a reason... Red Meat for Yellow Dogs... the far left not being the majority here.

Of course, from Right of Mussolini, I'm sure it must appear that way.

#65 | Posted by Corky at 2024-07-10 11:35 PM | Reply

"You're literally presenting the position of Israel, Fighting for freedom and civilians not being slaughtered daily.
#63 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER"

Quite the opposite. With regard to Gaza and the West Bank, we have had Israel be the systematic oppressors - not in some theoretical college class sense - but in the actual sense of Israel stealing the land, controlling the supplies of goods and water (thereby controlling the economy), and actually stationing occupying forces inside those areas.

As for civilians being slaughtered - you can only make that claim if your memory only extends back to Oct 7 as the number of civilians killed (in war and in peace time) by Israel is multitudes higher than the Palestinians have killed.

As to Russia - the Ukrainians were doing exactly that to the people of the Donbass for going on a decade. As these killings were promoted by West as a byproduct of their coup in Ukraine, nothing was going to stop it - so Russia took actions to end it.

#66 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 11:41 PM | Reply

"Of course, from Right of Mussolini, I'm sure it must appear that way.
#65 | POSTED BY CORKY"

You are left of Pol Pot -------. My views would be considered 100% mainstream as recently as the Clinton presidency.

#67 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-10 11:43 PM | Reply

---- off you Nazi bitch.

#68 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2024-07-10 11:58 PM | Reply

"I think you are the one lacking critical thinking in this regards OR you are applying Maoist, Stalinist or Khmer Rouge ideas to justify your position."

FRankfurt School, actually. Herbert Marcuse. Critical theory explicitly limits possible outcomes based on the application marxist philosophy. If somone is poor or an addict, it's not thier fault Rather the fault lies in the system which inevitably compelled someone to become an addict or choose a lifestyle putting them in poverty. Generally, the people in these marginalized positions did nothing unusual, rather the system pushed them there. They had no choice.

#69 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-11 12:03 AM | Reply

"---- off you Nazi bitch.
#68 | POSTED BY LEGALLYYOURDEAD"

Is this your official legal position -------? Remind us again what school gave you your law degree.

#70 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-11 12:06 AM | Reply

"Quite the opposite. With regard to Gaza and the West Bank, we have had Israel be the systematic oppressors - not in some theoretical college class sense - but in the actual sense of Israel stealing the land, controlling the supplies of goods and water (thereby controlling the economy), and actually stationing occupying forces inside those areas."

Israel dismantled it's settlements in Gaza in the early 2000s, along with the IDF. WHat you see in Gaza is the outcome of a freely elected Gazan government acting in it's own best interests, to include the distributiion of food and water. The much touted pier didn't do much. Why? Because any goods unloaded required a distribution system. That distribution system is Hamas. Are they really going to engage in the distribution of food when they know it will undermine their own credibility?

#71 | Posted by madbomber at 2024-07-11 12:26 AM | Reply

"Israel dismantled it's settlements in Gaza in the early 2000s,"

They have not done so for the West Bank.

"WHat you see in Gaza is the outcome of a freely elected Gazan government acting in it's own best interests, to include the distributiion of food and water."

So, the government in Gaza has the sole discretion on the import and export of goods and control of its water rights?

"The much touted pier didn't do much. Why?
#71 | POSTED BY MADBOMBER"

Because it is pretty obvious now that the purpose of the pier was never to deliver goods but was intended to allow Israel combat raids. However, the better question is 'why was a new pier needed, why not use the existing port'? And of course the answer is that Israel will not allow Gaza to build a port because IT IS NOT AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY but rather controlled Israel territory so there is no existing port. You cannot claim Israel allowed Gaza self-rule and have this glaring fact be true.

#72 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-11 12:56 AM | Reply

Republicans have done a fantastic job of convincing people to embrace ignorance.

Colleges in California have a lot of foreign students, these students are who will replace American workers in the future, because they're smarter and work harder.

That's the great replacement.

Keep fighting education.

See where that gets you.

#73 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-07-11 02:29 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Colleges in California have a lot of foreign students, these students are who will replace American workers in the future, because they're smarter and work harder."

There is ~1M international students at US universities - the number are high because they tend to pay full price tuition and the universities view this is a business AND NOT with the goal of actually educating Americans. A vast majority of these students will not quality for residency in the US post graduation and will go back to their home countries. The ones that do stay will have more or less adopted American values and demand wages roughly equivalent to native born Americans.

"That's the great replacement."

1M students, the vast majority of which will leave the country? Nope! The great replacement is coming from south of the border and is 100% encouraged by the Democrat party as witnessed in their current fight to make it easier for illegals to vote in US elections. These immigrants make up ~30M people currently in the US and they by and large DO NOT adopt American values.

"Keep fighting education.
#73 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK"

The GOP is fighting FOR education. The Dems are fighting for 'the university industry'. And yes, there is a difference. While the Democrat goal is to get as many people paying for college is possible with that being the only goal - the GOP is fighting for a better quality of education as well as alternatives to the university industry by encouraging education in the trades.

The result of 40 years of total Democrat control of US education is that US college graduates are dumber than college graduates in just about any other country. I can 100% guarantee you that an average college graduate from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Germany, and even Canada would blow the doors off the average US college graduate in any testing that focused on core skills and not just repeating woke nonsense.

#74 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-11 02:52 AM | Reply

#74 POSTED BY CLAUDIO

Troll alert!

#75 | Posted by Twinpac at 2024-07-11 04:06 AM | Reply

I wonder what "Claudio" makes an hour for this work. Can't be much. But his English isn't too bad, he can cut-and-paste his scripts quick enough. Whattaya think? A buck-three-twenty-five per sound about right?

#76 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2024-07-11 06:59 AM | Reply

This is great for kids who truly want a quality higher education.

"That confidence level has declined steadily from 57% in 2015."

That many people didn't change their minds............they can't afford it.

But in a survey it's embarrassing to admit that so they instead just claim they lack the confidence in a higher education.

what a load of crap.......it's about the money they don't have.

#77 | Posted by eberly at 2024-07-11 09:14 AM | Reply

MB, at least, is a rational conservative with legitimate, if not preferable to most Americans, political policy views.

Fraudio, otoh, is a Trump Cultist that reads like the bastard child of Steve Bannon and Alex Jones.

Totally worthless, mindless drivil.

#78 | Posted by Corky at 2024-07-11 09:59 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#59 very specifically, I said the loans should be based on likelihood of future earnings? Not familial assets. If you want to major in chemical engineering and borrow 70k to do it, your are very likely to be able to pay it back. Even if your family has a negative net worth.

Conversely, if you want to major in eastern Serbian architecture with a minor in women's studies ... good luck repaying any loan amount. Your family income should have no bearing.

That's how you normalize to hell the poor. It encourage them into careers with actual earning potential.

#79 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 10:34 AM | Reply

Currently with no discharge in bankruptcy, and federal backing ... it is impossible for banks to lose money. That incentivizes every investing fees and bloat.

If you don't think republicans are working hard to keep that status quo so banks make endless money, I don't know how to fix your stupidity.

Democrats continue to fight for the status q because it continues to look good on paper how many "minorities" are enrolling in college.

I'm but saying minority enrollment is a bad thing. It absolutely isn't. But, the way we go about it is the height of stupidity. Allowing anyone to saddle themselves with 100k in debt for mostly worthless degree in a major no one gives a crap about and calling it a win, is what's happening. " Statistics be damned, degrees for everyone!" Is the Democrat mantra, while the Republican mantra is "everyone gets paid! ... . Except of course the degree recipient ... . But who cares about them! Capitalism hell yeah!"

We need to be rewarding the hard sciences, management, busing and other high paying in demand jobs and letting charities and rich uncles help pile get degrees in areas with low rates of return.

One of the things I find unreal, is that to be s as teacher, it's a requirement in many places to have a masters degree, which represents tens of thousands in additional dollars spent on education ... .. for a job that on average, pays 50-60k a year. It's crazy.

Middle management security jobs at many companies pay 60-70k and require advanced degrees. We are requiring people leave their future with massive debt in the hopes of return, but mostly that return isn't there.

#80 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 10:48 AM | Reply

Let's be clear here....it's not necessarily that people have a less favorable view of a degree but rather college.

most of the student loan forgiveness was aimed at people who had debt....but no degree. THAT has to be driving the lower confidence level in college.

Are there folks with worthless degrees? No doubt but I think the elephant in the room are folks who have debt but no degree.

If I'm wrong, I'm very open to learning more.......

#81 | Posted by eberly at 2024-07-11 10:55 AM | Reply

I actually don't know about the forgiveness being aimed at those that never graduated. I never read that. What I did read is: to be eligible to MUST have repaid at least the amount borrowed, and made in time payments for ten years.

In other words, no one, not the taxpayer, not the banks, and not the government lost a single dime. And no one wrote a check to "pay off" anyone's debt. Future payments were forgiven. So no money needed to change hands.

That's a very important distinction.

In the end, if you didn't get your degree and had debt forgiven, under the above circumstances i have no issues with it, and don't understand why anyone would.

#82 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 12:02 PM | Reply

"I will oppose politicized higher ed with every bone in my body and every dollar of my bank acct."

Good luck using your last 5 dollars and your gummy bones to fight those manic voices in your head.

...

Sorry if that offends.

#58 | POSTED BY ROBSON

Can't speak for everyone but I personally am not offended by the mentally challenged.

#83 | Posted by donnerboy at 2024-07-11 12:39 PM | Reply

Are there folks with worthless degrees? No doubt but I think the elephant in the room are folks who have debt but no degree.

#81 | POSTED BY EBERLY

There are no worthless degrees from accredited colleges.

Most employers don't care what your degree is in unless its a somewhat technical job. They care that you HAVE a degree. You've proven you can self manage, do basic research, write, do basic math, etc.

This is compared to a high school degree which only shows you have a pulse.

#84 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-07-11 02:44 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Let's be clear here....it's not necessarily that people have a less favorable view of a degree but rather college.

Let's be really clear here ... the GOP have been bashing education, especially higher education, for decades, and it's finally paying off.

Enough mouth breathing deplorables have been produced to fill the MAGAt branch of the GOP.

"Education is for snobs!"
-GOP
*Conservatives Erupt in Applause*

#85 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-07-11 02:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Tell me you believe "Education is for snobs!" Without saying, "Education is for snobs!"

Are there folks with worthless degrees? No doubt but I think the elephant in the room are folks who have debt but no degree.
#81 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Well done.

The pursuer of education has merit.

Unfortunately it's been tied into our aggressive capitalist system which in fact punishes people for pursuing higher education.

#86 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-07-11 02:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

The pursuit of education has merit.

#87 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-07-11 02:48 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Unfortunately it's been tied into our aggressive capitalist system which in fact punishes people for pursuing higher education.

#86 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2024-07-11 02:48 PM | FLAG:

It rewards you if you pick the right field. It punishes you for getting a degree in art history or theology.

#88 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-07-11 03:02 PM | Reply

Both cool degrees if you want to be a docent one day, when you're 65+ and retired...

#89 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-07-11 03:02 PM | Reply

Lawyers, Historians, Archivists, park employees and politicians find a history degree good.

A theology is good if you want to be a clergyman or a stoner.

#90 | Posted by Tor at 2024-07-11 03:06 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It punishes you for getting a degree in art history or theology.
#88 | POSTED BY SITZKRIEG

Punished for learning.

Sounds like a great start to dystopia.

Then there are people who consider themselves intelligent, like you, are fully on board with it.

Cause, screw them for not choosing to learn something they can monetize in todays hyper capitalist society.

Learning for the sake of knowledge should be reserved for trust fund kids.

#91 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-07-11 03:09 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

-There are no worthless degrees from accredited colleges.

"worthless" was a poor choice on my part. "less valuable" would have been better.

"the GOP have been bashing education, especially higher education, for decades, and it's finally paying off."

I'm not saying you're wrong....but can you substantiate that assertion?

calmatters.org

Even the most liberal states have cut funding for higher education. Not just red states.

And maybe this is yet another area where perhaps where I live and how I live prevents me from seeing such evidence.

#92 | Posted by eberly at 2024-07-11 03:12 PM | Reply

"worthless" was a poor choice on my part. "less valuable" would have been better.

#92 | POSTED BY EBERLY

In terms of earning potential and career prospects, yes. We can agree on that.

Good correction.

#93 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-07-11 03:14 PM | Reply

Art history and the like are worthy pursuits. But we shouldn't be encouraging taking on 300k In debt at NYU (the most expensive school in the country) to get degrees like that.
If you want to secure grants and charities set up for the arts? No problem. But encouraging mountains of debt for a degree that will be largely useless, it's a losing proposition of "hard work poverty". Living paycheck to paycheck no saving to retire and just doing little else but paying it back.

#94 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 03:16 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Punished for learning.

#91 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK AT 2024-07-11 03:09 PM | FLAG:

No, punished for taking 60+ credit hours of level 3000-4000 classes about art history, knowing it has no chance of making back what you're investing in your learnings.

The library is a lot cheaper.

#95 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-07-11 03:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I saw a story about student loan debt a year ago. A kid at nyu was getting an art history degree. He was 270k in debt already. He was about to graduate and "couldn't find a job and didn't know what to do".

Is he stupid? Yes. But the system also dramatically failed him.

#96 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 03:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

It's too bad states broke their "public colleges and universities" promise and opted for the make-them-schools-earn-their-own-way corporate model.

#97 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2024-07-11 03:31 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Worse. I saw several interviews where people had been paying on time every month for years ... . And still owed more than they borrowed. Again. Insane, and the system is a complete failure.

#98 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 03:34 PM | Reply

97. I agree. I like the European model. Much better. Be super selective on who goes to college, have the state pay most of it, and pump out good, hard working kids. The rest? They don't feel regret for not going because college indent seen as the be all and end all of working. Trades are huge and highly encouraged and rewarded. I was shocked when I was in Ireland and a family we met said the Trinity college, one of the best learning institutions in the planet costs an Irish student 5k a year including books, fees, and tuition.

What we've done is take a bad way of doing things and implement it in the worst possible way.

#99 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 03:39 PM | Reply

97

Agreed.

#100 | Posted by eberly at 2024-07-11 03:42 PM | Reply

This country doesn't have the stomach for universal healthcare. Because god forbid a poor person gets care that the collective paid for. Something that is just seen as a right in Western Europe and no one bats an eye at paying to taxes to ensure that others worse off from them don't have to choose between ramen noodles and getting their cancer cured.

It's cruel, evil and insane. But, it also means we will never have the stomach for unscrewing higher education.

#101 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 03:50 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I like the European model.

I prefer Democratic Socialism as well.

Unfortunately too many uneducated people in America keep voting against their own interests.

#102 | Posted by ClownShack at 2024-07-11 04:02 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Completely agree. I will never understand how people look at Western Europe who have better marks than we do in: education, happiness, healthcare, stress, retirement, worker protections, vacation days, economic mobility (getting yourself out of poverty) and think:

"That sucks! I don't want that!"

America is literally in the middle of the pack or LOWER in every one of those categories. The one that surprises most people is that we're not even close to the most economically mobile country.

We're only number 1 in gun deaths, medical induced bankruptcy , and per capita prison population. Yet somehow are #1! Western Europe sucks!!!

Everyone thinks we are taxed lower than Western Europe. And we just aren't. If you include income, property, state, road and use, gasoline, fica ... . AND what we pay per year for our own healthcare, we pay almost exactly as much as Western Europe does in taxes.

But we get nothing in return except corruption. Western Europe gets something in return for their taxes so they don't stress about them as much. They pay them without a thought and move on.

#103 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 04:39 PM | Reply

When I was getting out of high school I had planned on trade school. nobody in my family had gone to college nor trade school....absolutely nothing. Truck driving was the highest professional skill ever obtained.

my parents were thrilled I was wanted to do something but they didn't encourage college really. Trade school might as well have been Harvard. Then I changed my mind and decided to attend college. They were fine with it but they weren't sure about it because higher education was a bridge too far for them. They hadn't gone, kids hadn't gone, none of their friends had gone...absolutely nobody in their world had been to college.

I didn't realize that when I went because I had a lot of friends who were going who's parents had gone and it didn't occur to me my family couldn't relate to this at all.

Now I see this today with my kids and their friends who parents that didn't attend college (or didn't finish).......they don't understand it's value and their kids won't likely be interested in getting a college degree.

it's friggin sad......I'm soooooo glad I went to college.

#104 | Posted by eberly at 2024-07-11 05:17 PM | Reply

Worse. I saw several interviews where people had been paying on time every month for years ... . And still owed more than they borrowed. Again. Insane, and the system is a complete failure.

#98 | POSTED BY ABH

Perhaps they should have paid more attention in math class?

Principal balance growth due to negative amortization sucks and perhaps they should have never agreed to it.

But I am glad that at least one president has tried to deal with in a way that can actually help some people escape the trap they agreed to walk into.

#105 | Posted by donnerboy at 2024-07-11 06:13 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Why is it always so great to blame the victim?

Blame the system that is set up intentionally to force people into unimaginable debt. It shouldn't be designed this way to be worse after ten years.

#106 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 07:41 PM | Reply

"In other words, no one, not the taxpayer, not the banks, and not the government lost a single dime. And no one wrote a check to "pay off" anyone's debt. Future payments were forgiven. So no money needed to change hands.
#82 | POSTED BY ABH"

And there it is, libtardism in its end state. We can give away free ---- all day and forgive debt and no one needs to 'pay off' anyone's debt. Is this really what you believe? You don't know how the student debt forgiveness is added to the deficit and hence, national debt, and not only will it be paid back by taxpayers, it will be paid back WITH INTEREST? Sounds like MSNBC really melted your brain.

#107 | Posted by Claudio at 2024-07-11 07:51 PM | Reply

Bull. The system, completely screwed up by the government ... . Caused a problem. Since they caused it, they have to fix it.

It's really simple

All forgiving student loan debt did, was have the government take less money from some people. Does that sound familiar? It should. It's a tax break in another form.

Remember when republicans believed the government should take less money from people? I do.

#108 | Posted by ABH at 2024-07-11 08:59 PM | Reply

Why is it always so great to blame the victim?

#106 | POSTED BY ABH AT 2024-07-11 07:41 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

They're not victims unless you're referring to them being victimized by their chosen education track. Even if you flunked college algebra, =PMT in open office (free) showed them exactly what their real minimum payment was to pay it off on time or sooner.

#109 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-07-12 10:25 AM | Reply

and I'm not aware of any 4 year degree you can get without passing college algebra. It's level 1000 math.

#110 | Posted by sitzkrieg at 2024-07-12 10:26 AM | Reply

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