American Joins Russian Army, Skips Out on Criminal Trial

Do any democrats join the Russian army,?

Just wondering? It's not like only Repukes would do that.

Why would anyone?

Is that what Putin is?

Is Zelinsky elected or ruling by decree with no election permitted?

Is the Ukrainian legislature elected? Or ruling as a rubber stamp for Zelinsky? Are Oligarchs in control of the Ukrainian economy which is largely command and control?

Askin' for a Friend.

Is Ukraine defending itself by invading Russia and committing war Crimes?

Is aggressive war defense?

Are American weapons being used for offensive operations despite specific requests not to use them that way?

Why is this permitted?

#11 So Russia invading was a legitimate defense against NATO encroachment?

Is that what you're saying? They felt threatened so it's all good?

Does this mean the Iraq invasion was a defensive war?

How about Operation Barbarossa? If Hitler genuinely felt that the Communists were a real threat to Germany? Was it a defensive War?

Your argument regardless of it's source is ---------.

Pure sophistry only the most stupid and morally compromised would accept.

Were Hiroshima and Nagasaki defensive actions against civilians in Japan?

What aggression wouldn't fall under this --------- belief?

Does offensive war even exist by that Standard?

Every crime could be called Legitimate defensive action.

How so? Please explain why. Just briefly.

How is offense defense?

Give one or two actual examples of this, real world historical occasions where this was the case. Explain why it was.

I'll wait.

Was the Iraq war defense? They had those WMD. Or rather, would it have been, IF they had those WMD?

NATO makes Russia nervous, isn't that sufficient reason to attack if the US was afraid of Iraq 8000 miles away with non existent WMD?

Askin' for a Friend.

Is Israel attacking Iran to keep them from getting the Bomb defensive?

If so, how is Russia attacking Ukraine to keep them out of NATO, not defensive?

My Friend is really Curious.

Iraq never encroached on the US. It's 8000 miles from the nearest US border.

Iraq did NOT have WMD. Bush/Cheney claimed Iraq was an Existential threat to the US and invaded Iraq. "Yellowcake" ,"Mushroom Cloud".

Why haven't they been charged with waging aggressive war?

Or was it actually "Defensive" when the US and Britain do it?

What's Up with that? Why the double standard? When do we start paying billions in reparations to the Iraqis? How long until Dubya is in a cell at The Hague?

Askin' for a Friend.

Given US behavior in Iraq why couldn't Russia have the same fears about Ukraine becoming too aligned with NATO and "defensively" hitting first to prevent them from joining NATO in the first place?

Ukraine borders Russia,it's not 8000 miles away and NATO has nukes pointed at Russia itself.

The Russian case for attacking Ukraine was about 1000 times better than the US British case was for invading Iraq. Yet not one US leader or official has been charged with Anything and the US still won't leave Iraq entirely even though the Iraqi government has repeatedly demanded their exit.

My Friend gets more confused the more he thinks about this.

Isn't Russia right to fear Western attack? Given the history.

NATO is an Anti Russian alliance, Armed to the teeth with both nukes and advanced modern weapons systems.

They aren't 8000 miles away with no WMD.

Gee, I wonder why they're nervous?

So it's OK if WE do it but not if THEY do it? Is that the point of your "help"?

How about it's NOT OK IF ANYONE does it? That works better for me but I have yet to see anyone tell me that.

There always seems to be reasons why the US is never Evil and Russia always is.

The Ukrainians were tormenting the people of the eastern Oblasts,to the point of armed rebellion by them. That seems just as bad as what Saddam was doing to his own people. The US supposedly was helping the oppressed Iraqis?

Russia made the same claims about the Donbass Republics.

What gives the US, given the history, any more credibility than Russia?

My Friend is still trying to make sense of that.

Yeah tormenting. They had been at War with their own people in Donetsk and Lugansk for 8 years. Shelling them and before that they had taken earned pensions from eligible people,outlawed the Use of the Russian language for official business,they were were economically strangling them with reduced payments. When the Minsk accords were not properly implemented the locals took up arms.

How is that different from "saving" the Iraqis from Saddam? Russia helped the Donbass Republics but didn't recognize them as independent fom Ukraine until the day before the invasion.

Why is that?

It would seem that the Anglo Americans have more credibility about what constitutes "defensive war" ,than Russia does, was Vietnam a defensive war given the "domino theory" about rising communism in Asia?

American interests were at stake in Vietnam and Cambodia?

This whole Offense as Defense idea is just so convincing. Protecting people from themselves and poor leadership. Making the world safe for Democracy. Giving sovereign nations the room to grow at their own pace, without any outside interference?

Sounds Great.

Show me One place where any of that has happened because the US intervened.

My Friend is eagerly waiting. He wants to hear how this will benefit him.

He live in darkness outside of the Western Tradition.

Is Iraq better for being invaded?

What exactly was the objective? Was it attained? Iraq was a quick war comparatively.

Saddam is gone but the US is still there. Meddling in Iraqi freedom. 20+ years later.

Now Iraq and Iran are Buds. Iraq has Shia influence not present under Saddam.

One million dead or wounded, an entire generation of Iraqis left without hope for the future. Are they "Better off" because America is strong?

Or to be more on point how about Ukraine itself. Hundreds of thousands dead.

Millions fled the country possibly never to return. The entire national infrastructure damaged to some degree or other.

Economy only alive because of massive Western aid. Ukraine has been pulverized for what? A peace offer was on the table. It was refused,but the War didn't end in their favor. Now they are looking at real defeat if the trends continue.

Is Ukraine better off now. Or would they be if Russia had blitzed them in 2022?

A quick decisive war instead of this long crushing war of position.

Obviously they would be better off if Russia Never Invaded at All.

Is the Same true of Iraq? Or Did Saddam just have to go?

My Friend is student of history and human development, he wants to know.

Why is a quick decisive war by the US more Moral than a slow motion slaughter by Russia?

More deaths in Iraq in less time. Sure it was "decisive",or seemed to be at the time. Still more Iraqis Died from US action than the Russians have killed in 2 years of slogging industrial war on a 600 mile front.

My Friend is confused by this and tells me he doesn't understand why the Americans think they know best with such Certainty.

I have no good answers for Him.

Perhaps someone on this forum could help?

No it isn't. You are the one deflecting. I'm asking about Ukraine itself.

I don't accept your basic premise about this war at all. The motives or the objectives.

Iraq is relevant because it is a parallel... What was the American objective in Iraq? Was it achieved?

If Russia actually intended what their stated objectives were, they are partially achieving them. The Denazification of Ukraine, the protection of the Donbass populations from Ukrainian terror etc.

The destruction of the Ukrainian Military they have obviously not achieved.

Only because of NATO prolonging the war. What if your assumptions about Russia are completely wrong? What if they really didn't intend to annex the whole country but only to pacify it like the US did in Iraq? Only the Donbass being held permanently.

Regime change but not total occupation for more than a short time.

I think it's likely that's what they originally planned. Obviously they failed. Obviously is was a Stupid thing to attempt.

If Iraq had strong backing by outside powers? What would have happened there?

Still fewer Ukrainians have been killed by Russia than Iraqis were killed by the US.

War is always Stupid unless absolutely necessary, and sometimes even then.

Is it better to just accept Regime Change or Die fighting it?

My Friend is not sure about That. It depends on the individual circumstances.

Surely sometimes it is though.

But how does one Tell?....