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Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, April 07, 2024

It's called "pay-to-stay", charging inmates for their prison stay, like a hotel they were forced to book. Florida law says that cost, $50 a day, is based on the person's sentence. Even if they are released early, paying for a cell they no longer occupy, and regardless of their ability to pay.

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FTA:

Not only can the state bill an inmate the $50 a day even after they are released, Florida can also impose a new bill on the next occupant of that bed, potentially allowing the state to double, triple, or quadruple charge for the same bed.

#1 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-06 10:05 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

On the plus side, Florida doesn't have an income tax.

Because taxes are cruel and inhuman punishment, or something. As opposed to charging poor people for board in a cell they didn't inhabit.

#2 | Posted by censored at 2024-04-06 10:34 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

As with every Republican policy that targets the poor, from abortion to school choice to Flint water:

The cruelty is the point.

#3 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-06 10:45 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

br />

@#3 ...The cruelty is the point. ...

Yup.

www.splcenter.org

... Long before the Trump administration implemented its "zero tolerance" immigration enforcement policy in 2018, it was already separating children from their parents as part of a "pilot program" conducted in the El Paso, Texas, area and along other parts of the border.

Under the El Paso program, begun in mid-2017, adults who crossed the border without permission -- a misdemeanor for a first-time offender -- were detained and criminally charged. No exceptions were made for parents arriving with young children. The children were taken from them, and parents were unable to track or reunite with their children because the government failed to create a system to facilitate reunification. By late 2017, the government was separating families along the length of the U.S.-Mexico border, including families arriving through official ports of entry. ...



Trump administration barring tours of migrant detention centers, Democrats say (2019)
www.reuters.com

... Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives on Thursday said the Trump administration is blocking investigators from touring immigrant detention facilities nationwide after recent visits revealed what they called "serious ongoing problems" concerning how detainees are being treated. ...

...

Spoiled food, filthy conditions: Migrant children in US reveal
www.dailysabah.com

... The U.S.' human rights obligations do not seem to apply to immigrant children, who suffer from rotten food, lack of clothes and crowded living conditions at detention centers managing their care, leading to a rise in depression among them ...

... after being separated from their parents....

#4 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-04-06 11:10 PM | Reply

@#4 ... Under the El Paso program, begun in mid-2017, adults who crossed the border without permission -- a misdemeanor for a first-time offender -- were detained and criminally charged. ...

Wait, what???

... a misdemeanor for a first-time offender -- were detained and criminally charged. ...

Criminally charged for a misdemeanor?

Can you say, ~weaponizing the DoJ?~

I knew you could.

#5 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-04-06 11:12 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

I never knew such a thing went on in any state in this country and found it hard to believe such injustice prevails:

"the judge sentenced Hoffman to seven years in prison. She served 10 months after the judge allowed her to participate in a youth offender boot camp."

And yet the state of Florida charged her $50 a day for the 7 years of her original sentence, so that now she owes the state $127,750. And apparently she is not the exception but the rule and "thousands of others" are in a similar situation.

#6 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-06 11:26 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

@#6 ... I never knew such a thing went on in any state in this country and found it hard to believe such injustice prevails: ...

This is what Gov DeSantis wanted to bring to all of the United States.

My current concern, I am not yet convinced that this apparent injustice will stop in Florida.


#7 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-04-06 11:33 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#6 There's all kinds of systems in place to oppress the poor.

Poor people might not be able to afford to take time off to go to court for a traffic ticket. So they get points on their license and their insurance goes up. Or they might not be able to afford car insurance one month and the lapse means their insurance goes up.

When you don't have a financial cushion you find out real fast how an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

They know to kick you when you're down.

As financial predators we hunt the weak and the sick and the old.

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-06 11:41 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 4

@#8 ... Poor people might not be able to afford to take time off to go to court for a traffic ticket. So they get points on their license and their insurance goes up. ...

Or another aspect, one I had a few yeas ago...

It is less expensive to agree to the false citation than to hire a lawyer to fight it.


#9 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-04-06 11:47 PM | Reply

"It is less expensive to agree to the false citation than to hire a lawyer to fight it."

I had a tax client send me a notice they got from Kansas. The bill was $14...but he could contest it for a $50 fee.

#10 | Posted by Danforth at 2024-04-07 12:01 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

WOW Holy hell. The old adage of Don't do the crime if you can't do the time never said anything about paying money to do the time. As a society. If we make laws against certain activities and people break those laws. The least we as a society can do is pay for their stay. This is ridiculous to the nth degree.

#11 | Posted by LauraMohr at 2024-04-07 12:02 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

Republicans are scum

#12 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-04-07 12:03 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#8

This is true in all economic classes, it's not unique to the poor.

The best thing to do is obey the law.

Right?

#13 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-04-07 12:05 AM | Reply

@#10 ... I had a tax client send me a notice they got from Kansas. The bill was $14...but he could contest it for a $50 fee. ...

Not surprised.

#14 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-04-07 12:08 AM | Reply

@#13 ... This is true ...

What, specifically, is true?

... The best thing to do is obey the law.

Right? ...

Oh, I agree with your current alias comment.

So, maybe your current alias might want to apply that assertion to the other threads upon which it has commented.

And, if I may ask, why the apparent ~new approach~ for your current alias?

I mean, ~obey the law,~ that seems to be so foreign to its prior comments.

Is your current alias, like the EffetePoser alias, now apparently trying to fit in here via their sucking up comments?


My current view --- troll farms appear to have a central approach...

But, that's just me.

:)



#15 | Posted by LampLighter at 2024-04-07 12:18 AM | Reply

The bill was $14...but he could contest it for a $50 fee.

Revenue Canada once spent $1.19 in postage sending me a notice that they owed me $0.87 but were not going to pay it since they don't pay out anything under $1.00.

#16 | Posted by REDIAL at 2024-04-07 12:28 AM | Reply

"It will be on her credit history, it will make it difficult for her to get a job, for her to get housing, to buy a car, or do anything else that she needs to do, to be able to return to society," Foster told the I-Team. "They have a lien attached to anything you get in life." Knee-capping her for the rest of her life.

In addition, I believe this unpaid bill also prevents former prisoners from voting. 23.3% of Black voters, 31% of Black men, in Florida cannot vote because of felony disenfranchisement. www.hrw.org en.wikipedia.org So this law will not be going anywhere so long as the GOP is calling the shots in Florida. Which means it's up to the voters to replace them. Oh wait, they can't, because almost 6% of them have been disenfranchised.

I guess it'll be up to SCOTUS to fix this. Which should happen right after Jill Stein 2024!

#17 | Posted by censored at 2024-04-07 08:31 AM | Reply

St. Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the corrections corporation of america.

#18 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2024-04-07 09:55 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

In addition, I believe this unpaid bill also prevents former prisoners from voting. 23.3% of Black voters, 31% of Black men, in Florida cannot vote because of felony disenfranchisement. www.hrw.org en.wikipedia.org

Voters voted to allow felons who'd served their time and paid their fines to be allowed to vote.

DeathSantis and the GOP state house didn't care what the voters said and overturned the will of the people.

#19 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2024-04-07 11:49 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 5

This is better than Taxpayers paying for it.

In CA that taxpayer pays $132,000 per inmate.

So, maybe your current alias might want to apply that assertion to the other threads upon which it has commented.

Which ones? Have I commented on other prison thread?

Please point them out.

#20 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-04-07 02:20 PM | Reply

"This is better than Taxpayers paying for it."

No it isn't.

It's one taxpayer paying the taxes instead of all of them.

#21 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-07 02:29 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 3

Economic Peonage...

I the like the ring of that.. Economic Peonage..

It's how they Roll.

I wouldn't move to Florida or Texas for any reason.

Just ---------, looking to export the Brand.

#22 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2024-04-07 04:16 PM | Reply

Economic Peonage...

I the like the ring of that.. Economic Peonage..

It's how they Roll.

I wouldn't move to Florida or Texas for any reason.

Just ---------, looking to export the Brand.

#23 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2024-04-07 04:16 PM | Reply

Economic Peonage...

I the like the ring of that.. Economic Peonage..

It's how they Roll.

I wouldn't move to Florida or Texas for any reason.

Just ---------, looking to export the Brand.

#24 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2024-04-07 04:16 PM | Reply

Cheap phone.

#25 | Posted by Effeteposer at 2024-04-07 04:18 PM | Reply

Any inmates who pay this should have a small commemorative plaque in their honor posted in their cell. Maybe someday they'll have all the cells wallpapered in these plaques, providing an extra degree of insulation and an even easier way to hose down the blood.

#26 | Posted by Dbt2 at 2024-04-07 09:01 PM | Reply

Incarceration, or indeed, any form of "criminal correction" must always be at the expense of the State. It can never be allowed to be profitable!
The alternative is to see what we're seeing here; that every crime can be forgiven by paying money to the State, and more and more things become crimes, and people become permanent slaves to the State.
The State will continue to convince itself that squeezing convicts for money is just what they need to make better citizens out of them.
And a vocal mass of the population will sneer at the convicts because they have no pity and believe that certainly, leopards will NEVER eat their face.
let's just follow the money, shall we? This all exists because someone is profiting from it. And lawmakers and other politicians are getting payouts somehow.
If it became expensive for the State to lock people up in cages and hobble them in ways that they can never recover, then the governmenbt just may, after thousands of years, look into addressing the real cause of crime and responding by doing something that actually helps. Instead of being psychopathic parasites about it.

#27 | Posted by AustinTX at 2024-04-07 09:32 PM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

Incarceration, or indeed, any form of "criminal correction" must always be at the expense of the State. It can never be allowed to be profitable

#27 | Posted by AustinTX at 2024-04-07 09:32 PM | Reply | Flag

Do you honestly believe the state can house, feed and care for someone for $50 a day?

All crimes come with penalties, paying a portion of your burden to the society you wronged is not cruel or unusual.

#28 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2024-04-07 10:20 PM | Reply

I explained my position. If the government insists on continuing to make things worse, then it ought to be expensive and not profitable. And yes, it is cruel though it is sadly less unusual lately.

#29 | Posted by AustinTX at 2024-04-08 01:18 AM | Reply | Funny: 1

All crimes come with penalties, paying a portion of your burden to the society you wronged is not cruel or unusual. #28 | Posted by lfthndthrds

And do you care about this aspect?: "It will be on her credit history, it will make it difficult for her to get a job, for her to get housing, to buy a car, or do anything else that she needs to do, to be able to return to society,"

$127,000 is what the state says she owes. A sum that the vast majority of Americans would be unable to resolve. And that's not even getting into the Catch-22 that the debt may very well prevent her from getting the employment/housing/car that she needs to pay off that debt. So she did something wrong and this should cripple her for the rest of her life, preventing her from reforming and rejoining society? That is twisted, IMHO.

#30 | Posted by censored at 2024-04-08 09:58 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

She is not objecting to paying the 10 months she was incarcerated but to the 6 years and 2 months she wasn't but which were part of her original sentence.

#31 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 10:16 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

"Do you honestly believe the state can house, feed and care for someone for $50 a day?"

House who? She's no longer in custody. What is she paying for, specifically?

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 10:22 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

So she did something wrong and this should cripple her for the rest of her life, preventing her from reforming and rejoining society? That is twisted, IMHO.

#30 | POSTED BY CENSORED A

This is the inevitable conclusion of dehumanizing criminals.

#33 | Posted by truthhurts at 2024-04-08 11:04 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 1

#8
This is true in all economic classes, it's not unique to the poor.
The best thing to do is obey the law.
Right?

#13 | POSTED BY ONEIRONAUT

Says the dude voting for Trump and supporting amnesty for J6ers.

#34 | Posted by Sycophant at 2024-04-08 11:40 AM | Reply | Newsworthy 2

Absolutely disgusting. Not even Texass does this. As far as I understand it, Texass will actually give you credit toward fines for time spent in jail, it appears the current rate is $150/day.

#35 | Posted by DarkVader at 2024-04-08 12:35 PM | Reply

The "pay to stay" law was enacted in 1994. Florida's governor at the time was a Democrat, Reuben Askew. He was succeedd by Lawton Chiles, also a Democrat. Those of you who view Florida as a solid red state have very short memories.

#36 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 05:49 PM | Reply

BTW Oregon also has a pay to stay law, but they charge $60 per day.

#37 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 05:49 PM | Reply

www.leg.state.fl.us
Here is the relevant statute. According to statute, the lien expires after 3 years, does take the ability to pay into acccount and applies only to the days/months actually incarcerated. So Shelby's circumstances do not seem to apply here, as she aleges she had been out of prison for 7 + years before she was notified of this lien. Either a mistake was made by the prison system, or Shelby's story isn't being accurately reported.

#38 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 06:04 PM | Reply

www.leg.state.fl.us
Here is the relevant statute. According to statute, the lien expires after 3 years, does take the ability to pay into acccount and applies only to the days/months actually incarcerated. So Shelby's circumstances do not seem to apply here, as she aleges she had been out of prison for 7 + years before she was notified of this lien. Either a mistake was made by the prison system, or Shelby's story isn't being accurately reported.
#38 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

I don't know what the right answer is, but here's what the article says about her situation, which the article also claims is not uniqe:

Hoffman hired an attorney in an attempt to modify her incarceration's costs to the 10 months she was in prison. The judge denied the motion, pointing to state law, saying, "A court may not modify a legal sentence imposed by it more than 60 days after the imposition," and, "incarceration costs are 'based upon the length of the sentence imposed by the court at the time of sentencing.'"

"I've been out of prison 7.5 years at this point. When I have trekked so hard to get a track record that I have now, and you are imposing something that I can't pay off in a lifetime, so I am stuck," Hoffman said.

#39 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 07:40 PM | Reply

#38 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

The article also says this, so I think the legislation you cited may not have gotten the votes to become law?:

The Fines & Fees Justice Center said, this last session, it worked with state legislators on a bill that would have allowed judges to do an "ability to pay assessment" when imposing fines and fees. It failed.

#40 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 07:45 PM | Reply

Miranda7 makes a habit of denying facts she doesn't like.

#41 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 07:48 PM | Reply

#38 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

It loos like the legistlation you cited applies to county and municipal prisoners:

Chapter 951
COUNTY AND MUNICIPAL PRISONERS

Was this woman incarcerated in a state prison, and does the legislation you cited also apply to them?

#42 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 08:00 PM | Reply

For example, Florida's two pay-to-stay statutes reside in Title XLVII: Criminal Procedure and Corrections, yet the statutes grant the state and counties explicit authorization to mobilize civil law against persons convicted under criminal law.2 The first criminal statute achieves this by defining pay-to-stay fees as civil damages and alluding to the state and counties as victims of crimes (FL 960.293(2)):
(FL 960.293(2)):
960.293 Determination of damages and losses."
(1) In a civil suit for damages filed by a crime victim against a convicted offender, the crime victim is entitled to liquidated damages in an amount equal to the actual damages award.
(2) Upon conviction, a convicted offender is liable to the state and its local subdivisions for damages and losses for incarceration costs and other correctional costs.
(a) If the conviction is for a capital or life felony, the convicted offender is liable for incarceration costs and other correctional costs in the liquidated damage amount of $250,000.
(b) If the conviction is for an offense other than a capital or life felony, a liquidated damage amount of $50 per day of the convicted offender's sentence shall be assessed against the convicted offender and in favor of the state or its local subdivisions. Damages shall be based upon the length of the sentence imposed by the court at the time of sentencing.

The second criminal statute determines pay-to-stay fees can be pursued in civil court on the grounds that they constitute victim's restitution to the government (FL 960.297):
960.297 Authorization for governmental right of restitution for costs of incarceration."
(1) The state and its local subdivisions, in a separate civil action or as counterclaim in any civil action, may seek recovery of the damages and losses set forth in s. 960.293.
(2) For those convicted offenders convicted before July 1, 1994, the state and its local subdivisions, in a separate civil action or as a counterclaim in any civil action, may seek recovery of the damages and losses set forth in s. 960.293, for the convicted offender's remaining sentence after July 1, 1994.
(3) Civil actions authorized by this section may be commenced at any time during the offender's incarceration and up to 5 years after the date of the offender's release from incarceration or supervision, whichever occurs later.

journals.sagepub.com

#43 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 08:07 PM | Reply

Miranda is a fraud.

#44 | Posted by LegallyYourDead at 2024-04-08 08:20 PM | Reply

County jails in Florida are for short term incarcerations. Usually a year or less, so somebody sentenced to 7 years had to have been in the state prison system.

#45 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 08:41 PM | Reply

I will never support making prisoners pay for the "services" we provide them.

But it's especially egregious when they pay real world prices, but get paid unreal wages like 92 cents an hour.

#46 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 08:45 PM | Reply

The "pay to stay" law was enacted in 1994. Florida's governor at the time was a Democrat, Reuben Askew. He was succeedd by Lawton Chiles, also a Democrat. Those of you who view Florida as a solid red state have very short memories.

?

Reubin O'Donovan Askew (September 11, 1928 " March 13, 2014) was an American politician, who served as the 37th governor of Florida from 1971 to 1979.

en.wikipedia.org

#47 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 09:02 PM | Reply

#36, I must correct myself, Lawton Chiles (Dem) was Governor from 1991-1998. It was Martinez (also a Democrat) before Chiles, not Askew. Florida had Democrat governors for the entire 20th century, and the laws involved in Shelby's case were signed into law during those years. The only point I am making here, is that those above who want to make this a partisan hatefest are on the wrong foot here. MANY states have laws like this. I know Oregon and Michigan do and I'm not going to research them all.

#48 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 09:02 PM | Reply

According to statute, the lien expires after 3 years, does take the ability to pay into acccount and applies only to the days/months actually incarcerated.
#38 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

^
You Lie.

"Damages shall be based upon the length of the sentence imposed by the court at the time of sentencing."
www.flsenate.gov

#49 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 09:15 PM | Reply

This is quite the catch-22 Florida has going:

Florida is one of five states where prisoners receive no money for their work, forcing families to cough up money for food and necessities. Florida is also one of 43 states that charge prisoners for their so-called "stay" behind bars, according to the Brennan Center for Justice.

truthout.org

#50 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 09:18 PM | Reply

This article has links to maps with how much each state charges, emphasis mine:

The Brennan Center has a map that shows what states currently can charge for housing and other fees associated with pay-to-stay arrangements, such as medical expenses. For example, Louisiana can charge for clothing, and in Missouri, prisoners can be charged for transportation, room, board, security, and other normal living expenses. Harvard Law School's Criminal Justice Policy Program has a website with an interactive map comparing all the fees that states are charging. The two states with the most system-related fees and surcharges are Michigan and Florida.

truthout.org

#51 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 09:22 PM | Reply

#39 I remember when these statutes became law, because there were many new documentation requirements that impacted my day to day work. I am looking for the other one now, but it was more pertinent to victim restitution and investigative costs. I don't recall a specific $50 amount, so that may be part of a third statute, or just determined as part of a state administrative rule. If you find a FSS number, please share. It is frustrating when the articles don't cite sources for the laws they refer to, always makes me wonder why they leave that out.

Whether the statute applies to state prison time vs county time is a very good question. There is also some confusion as to her actual court ordered 7 yrs (prison time) vs served sentence (10 mo youth offender bootcamp). The 7 years was likeley a suspended sentence (meaning it only gets served if they violate terms of the diversion program) and the 10 mos may have been considered county time.

I did a dive into public records for Shelby, and found a lot of conflicting information. The court record on this is a hot mess. Her case was closed and reopened numerous times, her sentence revisited and reconfigured. It doesn't appear that a lien or collection action was ever placed against her. At the same time, her "bill" was never cleared. This is not uncommon, the "bill" I speak of is something that appears on almost every inmates record. Pretty much nobody ever pays it, and no efforts are made to "collect" except in very unusual circumstances which I will save for another post, because I got involved in a couple cases where it was. (Very wealthy inmates, and oddly, people who win judgements against the state)

So in a nutshell, I don't know that the state is attempting to "collect" it, but Shelby is attempting to "clear" it, because she wants to work in healthcare, and to do so she must be found "exempt from disqualification". Apparently, she is being told she has to clear this bill to do so.....but I'm not sure that is actually required because the "bill" or "fee", does not appear to have been court ordered (See FS 435.07). If there is a court order or lien requiring her to pay the "bill", I haven't found it yet. Could be that DCF (in charge of the exemption) is demanding something that isn't actually required. Nevertheless, she took ti to the appeals court to contest her sentence, and lost her appeal. Possibly because technically the sentence itself wasn't the actual problem.

This appears to be a big mess of confusion and incompetence, and she is stuck right in the middle of it all. She appears to have a good attorney fighting for her, and hopefully she comes out ahead.

#52 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 09:40 PM | Reply

"#39 I remember when these statutes became law, because there were many new documentation requirements that impacted my day to day work."

And prisoners get to pay for you doing that work.

How's it feel, working for criminals?

#53 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 09:43 PM | Reply

"incarceration costs are 'based upon the length of the sentence imposed by the court at the time of sentencing.'"

I would like to see the rest of the order, and particularly the statute he cites for this, because is isn't consistent with anything I am aware of.

#54 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 09:44 PM | Reply

It is possible these laws have been changed in recent years under the Republican leadership in the state. That would be great. But I need more information on the topic. Do you have a link to an article saying that DeSantis signed such changes into state law?

#55 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 09:44 PM | Reply

"I would like to see the rest of the order"

That is from the statute.

#56 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 09:48 PM | Reply

The article also says this, so I think the legislation you cited may not have gotten the votes to become law?:

The Fines & Fees Justice Center said, this last session, it worked with state legislators on a bill that would have allowed judges to do an "ability to pay assessment" when imposing fines and fees. It failed.

#40 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

The law I cited was enacted in 1996 and is still active law. It already includes an "ability to pay assessment", but again there is still question about whether it applies to state vs county:

"The local detention facility shall determine the financial status of prisoners for the purpose of paying from their income and assets all or a fair portion of their daily subsistence costs. In determining the financial status of prisoners, any income exempt by state or federal law shall be excluded. Consideration shall be given to the prisoner's ability to pay, the liability or potential liability of the prisoner to the victim or guardian or the estate of the victim, and his or her dependents."

#57 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 09:51 PM | Reply

Wondering if this proposal ever became law?:

Proposal to ban free prison labor introduced for 2022 Florida legislative session

PUBLISHED 5:11 PM ET Jan. 05, 2022

The state of Florida allows for unpaid prison labor, but that could change if a Tampa-based Democratic lawmaker's joint resolution makes it through the Legislature in the upcoming session, which begins next week.

baynews9.com

Seems like if they are going to charge for your stay, they should also pay you for the work you do while you are there.

#58 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 09:52 PM | Reply

#50 and #51 Good points. A couple caveats: States that pay inmates pay them very little. Most states that don't pay them also don't have forced labor. There are only a few states left that have forced labor, and you might be surprised at which ones they are. Employment is optional in Florida, inmates are not forced to work.

#59 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 09:59 PM | Reply

"It is possible these laws have been changed in recent years under the Republican leadership in the state. That would be great. But I need more information on the topic. Do you have a link to an article saying that DeSantis signed such changes into state law?"

I'm not following why you think that would be great? What changes are you talking about? These (two) laws have been on the books since the 90's. They haven't been changed. But I am also unsure is there are other new laws I am unaware of. It would be helpful if the articles would cite sources for the information they are providing.

#60 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 10:04 PM | Reply

"It already includes an "ability to pay assessment"

What good is that?
Are you saying she has the ability to pay?

#61 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 10:04 PM | Reply

"Employment is optional in Florida, inmates are not forced to work."

Hahahaha! You Lie.

Prisoners are forced to work. In at least some instances, that includes those who have medical issues. Those who don't go out with their squads receive a disciplinary report, which can lead to up to 60 days in confinement and the loss of time earned off their sentences. Florida corrections officers write an average of 1,750 disciplinary reports per year for "refusing to work." It's not readily apparent how many of those were for people on the work squads.
stories.usatodaynetwork.com

#62 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 10:11 PM | Reply

I'm not following why you think that would be great? What changes are you talking about? These (two) laws have been on the books since the 90's. They haven't been changed. But I am also unsure is there are other new laws I am unaware of. It would be helpful if the articles would cite sources for the information they are providing.
#60 | POSTED BY MIRANDA7

I was wondering if state prisons were following the same statues as the county prisons with the cavaets you outlined above regarding liens disappearing after 3 years and prison authorites being about to dtermine the prisoner's ability to pay. I assumed they weren't based on what happened to the woman in the article and that perhaps changes had recently been made to fix the problem, but it looks like there is some other catch-22 operting in this woman's case and in the cases of others like her.

#63 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 10:21 PM | Reply

"liens disappearing after 3 years"

Then what is this?

"Within three years, when applying for the exemption to work in case management, her dream job is when Hoffman found out that she " like thousands of others " still owes the state $50 a day for the seven years of her original sentence: $127,750."

The lien may be expired, but the debt remains.

#64 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 10:31 PM | Reply

The lien may be expired, but the debt remains.
#64 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

It looks like that's the catch-22.

#65 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2024-04-08 10:36 PM | Reply

Thats the thing, it doesn't appear that there WAS a lien, or a court order demanding payment that I can find. It is more like a bill, the kind that pretty much never gets paid. It has no teeth without a court order. Nobody pays these, and the state really doesn't even try, keeping track of these expenses is more of a bookkeeping thing. This is a problem for Shelby, however, because she is asking the state to give her an "exemption for ineligibility" to allow her to work as a health care provider. And it appears DCF is denying the exemption because of this outstanding bill, and they are in the wrong to deny it.

#66 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 10:48 PM | Reply

"and they are in the wrong to deny it."

They have every right to deny it.

#67 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 10:52 PM | Reply

"It has no teeth without a court order."

It has enough teeth to affect her career.

This is the system, working as intended.

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 10:53 PM | Reply

#58 No, that bill failed, but it was a bit performative, because it sought to outlaw things Florida doesn't do anyway, forced labor and unpaid labor. California, on the other hand, HAS forced labor and pays inmates them even less than Florida does. They had a similar bill fail.

#69 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-08 10:59 PM | Reply

"because it sought to outlaw things Florida doesn't do anyway, forced labor and unpaid labor"

Holy ----. What is with the relentless lying. Florida does both of those things.
Aren't you supposed to be black? I can't imagine a black person doesn't know these things to be true!

With a few rare exceptions, regular prison jobs are still unpaid in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas.
www.prisonpolicy.org

A century later, unpaid prison labor continues to power Florida
stories.usatodaynetwork.com

As other states ban unpaid 'slave' prison labor, lawmakers drop plans to tackle issue in Florida
www.wlrn.org

The secret history of Florida prison labor
thenewtropic.com

#70 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 11:13 PM | Reply

"Aren't you supposed to be black? I can't imagine a black person doesn't know these things to be true!"

What in the absolute ---- is that supposed to mean?

What are black people supposed to know about?

Prison labor? Black people should possess special knowledge specific to prison labor stats?

#71 | Posted by eberly at 2024-04-08 11:18 PM | Reply

"What are black people supposed to know about?"

Racism.

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 11:19 PM | Reply

LOL

#73 | Posted by eberly at 2024-04-08 11:21 PM | Reply

But please, tell me again how Florida is anything but a hellhole.

#74 | Posted by e1g1 at 2024-04-08 11:24 PM | Reply

LOL all you want. Avoidance is what we've come to expect from Republicans, because Republicans don't want to acknowledge American history is steeped in racism.

Florida has many examples:

The birth of the Florida prison system -- unlike most in the U.S. -- came after the Civil War in 1868. Shortly after, the state legislature "arranged to offset the new prison's expenses with the returns of the labor of its prisoners," according to One Dies, Get Another: Convict Leasing in the American South. Labor that would be performed both inside and outside the prison's walls.

Florida, always rapidly developing since its acquisition, was in dire need of laborers. So the state created new ways to capitalize on the disenfranchised in order to keep up with the pace of growth, satisfying not only the labor demands of development, but also the moral demands of racism. In 1877, Florida's Governor George Franklin Drew codified the convict leasing system, whereby prisoners were leased out to private entities and industries. As Douglas Blackmon notes in his Pulitzer Prize"winning book Slavery by Another Name, convict leasing was a method undertaken by the Southern States to replace the economic setup of slavery. The convict leasing system was especially harsh in Florida, where convicts worked long days mining phosphate and turpentine, clearing out tropical landscapes, and laying roads in hellish temperatures without adequate food, water, or shelter. They were subjected to brutal punishment not unlike the cruelties performed on slaves " including whipping, solitary confinement, and torture.

Convict leasing grew into a wide network of sheriffs, wardens, and state officials who traded in contracts for prisoner labor. As Blackmon puts it, "By 1900, the South's judicial system had been wholly reconfigured to make one of its primary purposes the coercion of African Americans to comply with the social customs and labor demands of whites." In Florida, "companies that benefited from the system gave tacit and direct support for the social and legal barriers aimed against the black citizens," according to the World Digital Library, a project created by the U.S. Library of Congress.
thenewtropic.com

#75 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 11:25 PM | Reply

-LOL all you want.

As much as I damn well please, Moochy.

Cut and paste another 19 links and-------- to all of them.

I'm not disagreeing with any of it.

But shame on the ------- for not knowing some states still have have unpaid prison labor. Can they still be black for not knowing that?

#76 | Posted by eberly at 2024-04-08 11:35 PM | Reply

"But shame on the ------- for not knowing some states still have have unpaid prison labor."

Shame on anyone for not knowing* that.
But it's more likely to affect a black person, since they're more likely to:
1. live in the South.
2. get sent to prison.

*It's not that she doesn't know. That is a mischaracterization. She is lying about it.

#77 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-08 11:45 PM | Reply

#62 Prisoners are forced to work.

This isnt true in California, but for each day you choose not to work, a day is added to your sentence.

So you have choice... But not really.

Finally, in CA a prisoner earns between 8 cents and 37 cents an hour.

So this isn't just a southern thing. Seems like lots of states implemented this sort of punishment.

#78 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-04-09 12:05 AM | Reply

Amendment 1, Section 6 in the California constitution has in it the ability to actually practice involuntary servitude,

Does every black person in CA know this?

Wow had no idea.

#79 | Posted by oneironaut at 2024-04-09 12:08 AM | Reply

This isnt true in California, but for each day you choose not to work, a day is added to your sentence.

Is that part of the court sentence? You get sentenced to 5 years but it's actually ten years if you don't "work"?

#80 | Posted by REDIAL at 2024-04-09 12:11 AM | Reply

Periodically I have to remind Snoofy that I don't respond to him. Most of the time I keep him killfiled, so I don't see his posts at all, until somebody quotes something that gives me a reason to unblock him and look. In this case, a racist remark directed at me. Snoofy persists in cowardly personal attacks, all the while knowing I won't respond to him. That is a sign of a weak, impotent, toxic manchild. It is a shame, because he is intelligent and makes some interesting points, but his propensity for nasty, racist, mysogynist personal attacks stops me from engaging with him. It takes a sick person to do that, day in, day out, and I pity him.....It struck me that Snoofy is exactly like the incels described in the other thread:

"most women who spend much time walking around in public have experience with men who berate them for paying attention to something other than the man who is now, often out of nowhere, spewing invectives. Whatever the excuse the angry man concocts, the impetus is always the same: The eyes of a woman are directed at someone or something that is not him, and he is indignant over it. So he will make sure she has no choice but to look at him, either by getting in her face or " in these alarming New York cases " punching her. If he cannot capture her adoring gaze, well, he will make her stare at him in fear.

#81 | Posted by Miranda7 at 2024-04-09 02:19 AM | Reply

"If he cannot capture her adoring gaze, well, he will make her stare at him in fear."

^
Sums up how Deplorables run the game and intimidate their enemies. From abortion bans to Charlottesville Unite The Right armed torch-bearing Brownshirts.

Cops too. Respect my authoritah!

#82 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-09 03:39 AM | Reply

The natural beauty, animal kingdom diversity, glitzy attractions, even Pitbull's reggaeton thump pale in comparison to the foundation of FL. Which is decidedly Lower South. Ask an intelligent North Carolinian, or a deep-dyed Virginian and they'll explain the "us" v "them" side of things when it comes to Upper South and Lower South. When I say "Lower South" I'm referring to what's also called the "Deep South" - Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Texas and Florida. Yahoo my butt; it's "yahoo" all the way. Awful heritage, one best explored and learned from and certainly not worthy of emulation. FL could start by taking part of a CSA flag off its state flag - nope, it's not a "Spanish cross." That would be a start.

#83 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2024-04-09 05:59 AM | Reply

OH.....I feel so sorry for criminals who oppress, harm, steal and violate innocent victims that include women, elderly, children and frankly anyone who didn't ask to be harmed or criminalized that are now charged for their actions (sarcasm intended) . Prison is meant to deter criminality and take them off the streets. That is a good thing. Poverty has nothing to do with it. Poor are and can be good people too. Our country needs led by and educated by people of character instead of loser political manipulators that want them turned crazy and full of mind altering drugs.

Many of the comments on here outrageously sums up the perverted "I love criminals and hate America" mentality of the "left" that now defines the new Biden version of Democrats. We need a country that takes those with such a criminal mindset and compartmentalizes them among similar like minded losers and people so they don't contaminate the good American people that actually believe in helping others and living their own life without harming others.

#84 | Posted by Robson at 2024-04-09 11:02 AM | Reply

Directly related to the GOP's wet dream wish of a Poll Tax on every minority...
This is the 'let's keep the minorities broke so they can never have nice things
act'...

And Robson, it is one thing to make violent criminals pay (that, btw, is called their
SENTENCE, in case you conveniently forgot) and it is quite another to make people
permanently pay for lesser offenses.

Let me guess which way Florida interprets this law...

I'm guessing the Harsh Way.

#85 | Posted by earthmuse at 2024-04-09 01:08 PM | Reply

"Many of the comments on here outrageously sums up the perverted "I love criminals and hate America" mentality of the "left" that now defines the new Biden version of Democrats."

Got any examples?

#86 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-09 01:09 PM | Reply

"OH.....I feel so sorry for criminals who oppress, harm, steal and violate innocent victims that include women, elderly, children and frankly anyone who didn't ask to be harmed or criminalized that are now charged for their actions (sarcasm intended) ."

The criminal in this story has done more with their life than you.

Notably, she learned from her mistakes, something you have not done yet.

#87 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-09 01:12 PM | Reply

[...] Many of the comments on here outrageously sums up the perverted "I love criminals and hate America" mentality of the "left" [...] #84 | Posted by Robson

You sound like someone who, like myself, has never made a mistake in his life.

I'm all in for grinding people under our heels into a fine puree for everything and anything they do wrong. However, it might be better for all concerned to eventually let people become functioning members of society, rather than confining them in perpetuity to an underclass that has no chance of bettering themselves.

Or turning them into topsoil. Whatever floats you boat, I guess.

#88 | Posted by censored at 2024-04-09 04:31 PM | Reply

Throughout blue cities violent criminals are continually given the benefit of the doubt and then let off without bail by Soros DAs who want leniency. That neither helps them nor society. They need incarcerated and kept off the streets. If they fail to empathize and respect law abiding citizens then incarcerate them forever. Keep them from harming others.

Repeat offenders should have no opportunity to harm others. Let them live among and go after Democrats if that is their belief.

Democrats and Biden oddly have absurd sympathy for the trash that would take innocent people out given the chance. Keep them out of power forever if you respect the life of your family.

#89 | Posted by Robson at 2024-04-09 06:50 PM | Reply

"Democrats and Biden oddly have absurd sympathy for the trash that would take innocent people out given the chance."

^
The cop who killed Breonna Taylor is not really part of this story.

#90 | Posted by snoofy at 2024-04-10 12:09 PM | Reply

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