"But what Israel's doing to innocent civilians in Gaza has turned even me into someone who blames them now more than their enemies."

Any position on the massive allied bombing campaigns against Germany during WWII?

Y'think it may have been better for the US to sit that one out rather that kill the untold hundreds of thousands that died in an effort to rid Europe of National Socialism?

Would that have, maybe, make you blame the allies more than the Germans?

"Joe Biden is going to lose the election over his support for the extermination state."

He'd lose even more if he pulled his support.

Team Tik Tok are not the only voters who vote Dem. There's actually some smart ones out there.

"Effective for What? Maximizing civilian Deaths?"

If it were maximizing civilian deaths it would be ineffective, but easier. Every bomb you drop on a target of no military importance is a bomb wasted.

First I'm hearing of it, but I suspect it's an application that aggregates different intelligence inputs into something that can direct analysts and targeteers onto specific entities, thus reducing kill-chain timelines. I'd love to know more.

And I know that the Geneva Conventions and LOAC are not really your thing, but what we know beyond any shadow of a doubt is that Hamas actions show them to be war criminals. The Israelis aren't bombing hospitals and schools in Gaza any more than we were in Raqqa and Mosul. When a belligerent uses a protected entity (like a school or hospital), it loses it's protection and becomes a valid military target. This is not an Israeli thing, or a US thing, or even a Hamas thing. It's an International Humanitarian Law thing. It's a Geneva Conventions thing.

"When they had to drop 200 planeloads of bombs in order to hit one factory?"

I was driving around the town I live in one day, and my buddy I was with pointed out that the entire area (all residential) had been destroyed by allied bombing during WWII. He told me they were aiming for the railyards.

The railyards are about two miles away.

"Masters of the Air" kind of stuff.

Consider Dresden, where 25k women and children were killed during one raid.

One must assume that many of the posters here would have demanded Truman be held accountable for war crimes.

"Nazi Germany was a nation state capable of waging aggressive war on neighboring nations."

It wasn't in 1945, when the raid on Dresden occurred.

"Also like Nazi Germany, Israel is an Ethno-supremacist State based on religion and ethnic vainglory."

As in Hamas. In fact Hamas's entire mission isn't so different than that of the National Socialists. And based on polling, so are the Palestinians. I'm assuming you're familiar with the concept of "from the river to the sea?"

"Hamas is a few thousand people closed in a sealed ghetto environment. They aren't going anywhere."

Neither was Germany after about 1943 or so, which based on your logic suggests any further military actions against them would have been unnecessary and possibly criminal.

"It's closer in capabilities to the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto than the Nazis."

Absolutely not. In fact it's just the opposite. An overwhelming majority of Palestinians support the extirpation of the Jewish state. This is like the Warsaw uprising, only now the Jews are better armed and can take on those who want to eliminate them.

"You are either Really Dumb, or think everyone here is."

Dumb is subjective. You base everything you believe on emotion. You take sides. You lack objectivity. You don't understand critical thought. That doesn't make you dumb. I think you look at me as being dumb because I don't do those things-as if they are the natural response.

"How many US aviators that participated in the fire bombing of Germany or Japan were prosecuted for war crimes?"

Uh...it depends on which country was doing the prosecuting and when. I think Japan tried allied Airman as war criminals prior to their defeat.

I also think I recall that Curtis LeMay expected to be tried as a war criminal if the allies lost the war.

"Were the thousands of bombs dropped on Dresden Wasted?"

Ugh...

OK. Here is your history lesson for today. The biggest problem allied air planners had during WWII was an accuracy problem. From 25k', using unguided munitions, allied bombers were very, VERY inaccurate. I'm not sure if you're watched Masters of the Air, but they sometimes refer to a desired point of impact or a desired mean point of impact. This was not necessarily the target, but the point the bombers would aim for in order to attempt to achieve the desired effect against the target. That's because there was a significant dispersion pattern created by bombers flying in a formation.The larger the area target, the more bombs would be required to achieve the desired effect.

But the important thing to remember is that every time you put a bomber in the air, you put the lives of ten very expensive aircrew at risk. So the USAAF was not going to drop more bombs than required, because that would mean more risk for the crew-force writ-large.

The accuracy problem also dovetails into your comments on Japan. The nuclear weapons were the ultimate solution to the accuracy problem. Do have achieved the destructive effect on Nagasaki or Hiroshima would have required hundreds if not thousands of conventional bombers. Now the same effects could be achieved with a single bomber. You don't have to compensate for the lack of accuracy with tens of thousands of weapons when one will suffice.

"Frankly, If YOU bombed civilian targets YOU belong in Prison too."

According to what? Certainly, no internationally recognized law or statute, although your definition of "civilian target" indicates your ignorance on the subject. Under International Humanitarian Law, there is no such thing as a "civilian target." A target by definition must serve a military purpose. So there is no such thing as a "civilian target." And even attacks against valid military targets that were once protected must be justified, normally through a legal review.

"Is it being overly emotional about "necessary" deaths?"

With the very specific exception of persona-based targeting, humans are not targets. You target capabilities.

Necessary and unnecessary deaths fall somewhat under the concept of proportionality. But even proportionality is centered on achieving a desired military effect.

#52

I don't know if you've watched "Masters of the Air," but it's eye-opening. The US would spend months training pilots, navigators, bombardiers, radio operators, and other crewmen to fly B-17s. In far too many cases, none of them made it through their first mission.

I always comment on how the Russians throw meat at the problem in Ukraine...the US did it with their aircrews in WWII. Very expensive meat.

"Dresden Was Not a militarily important target. It should not have been bombed, At All."

According to who? The holocaust denier crowd? Why am I not surprised you buy it?

Dresden was deemed by allied planners to be a key strategic target that could slow down the Soviet advance, and therefore a valid military target. Striking Dresden would slow the Germans from reinforcing the defenses in the east and prolonging the war.

Dresden was just one of several targets chosen for this purpose. The city was just chosen after the fact by the German far-right and NS sympathizers as a cause to focus on. Sort of like you focus on Gazans being innocent victims today.

In fact, oddly enough, far-right Germans consider it a "holocaust."

Today, maybe they could use the terms "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing," and score points with Team Tik Tok.

#57

43x 11 crewmembers per aircraft is a lot of downed airmen.

It would have represented about 20% of the entire US losses in the 20 years the US was in Afghanistan.

I found it interesting that the article mentioned a hospital in Gaza that was named after a terrorist organization.

Al Aqsa Martyrs Hospital.

"Just like The Nukes dropped on Japan. Pure Malice toward CIVILIANS when the war was already won by the allies."

I don't think you know much about history.

The ivasion of the Japanese home islands was expected to result in 500k allied casualties. It was also expected the Japanese would fight for the emperor down to the last person.

Nukes probably saved Japan culture from complete or near complete extirpation.

"It's telling that both of these terrible crimes were done when the countries targeted were unable to retaliate in kind."

Dude is operating on 100% emotion. No clue at all about actual, real-world policies, laws, and precedents.

The notion that the Dresden bombing was a war crime was the product of the German far-right. And it wasn't the only place. The Germans screaming "war crimes" for enduring a situation they created isn't that much different than the Hamas supporters claiming war crimes.

Maybe the Israelis are committing war crimes. I don't know. But I do know the Palestinian Jihad has, and almost certainly still is.

"It's never good enough lol. It's the artificial construct of winning with the least amount of people dying. It's devoid of historical reality."

If you're unwilling to defend yourself, the best thing for everyone is to surrender.

"The Japanese were already defeated. They just weren't willing to declare Unconditional Surrender."

Then they, by definition, weren't defeated.

In fact, even after the nuclear weapons had been used, Senior Japanese military leadership did not believe the US could have made enough nuclear weapons to have a significant impact on the war. They though this because both the Japanese Navy and Army had nuclear weapons programs and had failed to even build one. And they were correct. It was only after the second bomb, combined with the Soviet assault on Japanese held Manchuria with 1.5 million men that Japanese military leadership began to realize that they had actually been defeated. Even then, many in Japan were willing and able to die in the defense of the Emperor.

You baffle me.

"Those two words cost 200,000+ lives. Real people. Civilians."

If it hadn't been nukes, it would have been an invasion of the home islands, which would have killed far more than 200,000 people. It very well may have led to the end of Japanese society.