-It seems the worst crime you can commit in this country is being poor.

I've found it's almost the best way to pay for a higher education. All the aid is based on that.

Just be poor....or really rich. In between is hard.

Okay....I'm being a little sarcastic but after the taxes I've paid while paying for a private school education and college for 3 kids...still working on the youngest one.

It adds up. Not calling it "theft" but it sure feels like it at times.

Cash is king.

-It doesn't matter how close to a big city you are. If you're in the county as opposed to a Town or City, you're on your own.

I grew up in rural Kansas. For my entire childhood, our address was "rural route 2" until my folks moved into a town with an actual street address.

What do you mean by "on your own"?

-Having said that I'm not sure I could have done that if I was starting out in today's economy.

I agree that today's economy presents unique challenges to youngsters.

But the steps to avoid the pitfalls of debt are the same steps you took (live within my means...say no to a few trips..)

It's a huge challenge but the choices (good and bad) are still the same.

-You think people in this economy who are struggling or doing so because they're taking too many vacations??

no. That's not what I said.

-How does one "live within their means" when they're not being paid a living wage?

I don't have an answer on how to get poor people to stop being poor.

I simply said the steps to avoid unnecessary debt are the same as they were.

The challenges are real, no doubt and are increasing all the time.

I have 25 and 23 year old daughters living in 2 of the biggest cities in the US. They're managing professional jobs and paying rent and all their expenses.

You want to ask them your stupid questions?

23

I can add, moron.

You haven't posted anything worth responding to, really.

IF your kids are making minimum wage and spending it on starbucks and avocado toast, then...well....your kids are ------. Truly ------.

Primarily for having nothing more than minimum skills. Honestly, I can't think of anybody who can only make federal minimum wage.

Next, if after only having barely enough skills to earn only the minimum wage.....they aren't entitled to starbucks or avocado toast.

I know 18 year old idiots who are training for tech jobs that will pay $30/hour when they are out.

My 18 year old is making $22/hr working construction this summer. In Kansas, BTW.

Here is a rough guideline to avoid earning anything near the federal minimum wage

1. Be sober
2. show up on time
3. have a drivers license

Those 3 will assure you of making triple the minimum wage even if you possess no other real skills. I'm guessing you're going to fall short on some of those?

Clownshack...seriously...do you know a single person making the minimum wage....let's assume it's the California minimum wage?

-Poor people are poor by design.

Based on how we define "poor" then yes, it's by design.

We distribute income on a bell curve and the bottom 20% are poor. or whatever % we choose to define it.

There is no mathematical way to escape it.

-"kids need to learn how to live within their means like I did!

Obviously, you're attempting hyperbole and sarcasm with that but you accidentally got it right.

Kids need to learn to live within their means, even if the world isn't delivering them the economic justice they feel entitled to.

I completely understand the flaw of the cost of higher education that results in a job that makes it very difficult to service that student loan debt and be able to afford rent, transportation, etc.

But despite that.....they still have to take the same steps I took back when I had student loans and had to afford rent, a car, and my starbucks and avocado toast. LOL

-In the 1950s, a man could care for their family of 4 with a single income earning minimum wage.

I know. Then we went off the rails and started crazy things that screwed over that minimum skilled man.

like civil rights, the ERA, etc....you know.....things that leveled the playing field. Then we asked that minimum skilled man to compete with men from other countries for the same job.

And now that same minimum skilled man can't care for his family on minimum wage.

Can we dispense with the whining about that and move on to what's realistic?

-So I'm not sure why you have advice for poor people

I stated it clearly I don't have advice for poor people. I have advice for youngsters who are trying to navigate the real world they are living in.

"Quite the opposite.
Minimum wage needs to be a living wage again."

Geez....you're really screwed up.

Kids do indeed need to learn to live within their means.

Because there is no making the minimum wage a living wage again.

There is no way that's going to happen.

So, since that's the way it is....why don't you try and be part of the solution instead of bitching like a little wimp you're not getting your way.

I assume you have no children so we're all grateful you're not out there screwing up another generation of clownshacks.

-There's no "living within your means" when you're not being paid a living wage.

Again, do you know anyone who fits this description?

Other than yourself, perhaps?

-The fact that you consider what I'm saying to be "whining"

What do you call it? You're literally complaining about how a man with skills so low that they are able to earn only minimum wage and that wage can't support a family with it.

I call it whining.

You call it whatever you want. But everyone is going to ignore you except to belittle you like I am right now.

"the reason why politicians feel like it's totally fine screwing over minimum wage workers."

Can a man in California support a family on minimum wage?

I guessing no......and that's largely in part because not even Democrats in California care all that much for minimum wage workers.

-Apathy is also whats killing America.

True but your absolute ignorance of how our economy works isn't part of any solution.

48

Is English a language you speak? I don't know what the ---- you're even saying.

Wow, nobody can read nor do even basic math here.

well, no wonder you're all pissed about being broke.

If I were illiterate and unable to calculate anything, I'd be pissed as well.

I'm not trolling.

I'm not missing a barn.

You're not even able to discuss anything. Just complain and whine about the circumstances.

I know how much minimum wage is. I know how much rent is. Stop revealing your ignorance, for Christs sakes.

I can try to make point.....for the 5th time.

Again.......try and understand this...

"I agree that today's economy presents unique challenges to youngsters.
But the steps to avoid the pitfalls of debt are the same steps you took (live within my means...say no to a few trips..)
It's a huge challenge but the choices (good and bad) are still the same."

The above post was a response to QCP's comment about his youth and the steps he took to get out of his debt. Saying no to things.

I can say the same thing to a youngster TODAY that finds him or herself in the same situation.

I didn't say ---- about trying to raise a family on minimum wage, which is so ------- ludicrous, you should all be embarrassed you went that direction.

Jesus...are you all minimum skilled losers making minimum wage? Is this just your way to admit it? Or, you reared children like just described? Minimum skilled workers who can't make it today?

I'm not chastising a young person for busting their ass trying to get by today. I can see it firsthand with my own kids. Except the minimum skilled part, of course.

-You can't live within your means if you're not getting paid a living wage.

I don't have advice for folks being paid less than a living wage.

I also don't have advice for kids in the foster care system.

I'll tell you what...I'll leave you kids to scream about minimum wage and foster care.

I was talking about how kids in their 20s with a real job can get benefit from denying themselves some creature comforts that can wait a while longer. To push back on their desire to indulge until they knock out some debt.

Not to disparage minimum wage workers or foster care kid.

Geez......

-Your parents were well off

high school education and an 8th grade education.

sharecropped. Never had any money and died with a very small net worth.

But they gave a ---- about me and there was always food on the table.

So...yeah, I had that.

-Unless I'm wrong, you didn't do anything to advance yourself an economic bracket.

Well, I did advance myself an economic bracket.

so, who did it for me if I didn't do it?

You want to make this personal? fine

What have YOU done to help yourself? Did you and Idaho girl date while you were both in foster care? Wait...nevermind...she's a girl.

-Which is why I'm adamantly pro abortion.

LOL.....why don't you just spew out the advantage I have that's unavailable to you.

There are 2. Am I right? compared to you, I have 2 advantages.

Advantages that piss you off.

-So, this "explosion in household debt" is entirely because of "creature comforts" according to you.

Wrong again, moronrobot. I'm not doing any such thing.

Do you get paid to be wrong here? It's as if you're incentivized to be so wrong.

"Why?
The problem isn't people aren't working hard enough."

I didn't say anything about how hard they are working.

You're suggesting kids spend more than they make, go into deep debt and enjoy vacations, nice cars, and just pay the minimum on their credit card, student loans, and just worry about tomorrow...tomorrow.

And why? Because.........------- billionaires.

wow....just wow.

69

No ----? You just thought of that? People need to be paid more?

that's the solution? "250 million people just need more money" - clownshart, economist for the DR

Thanks...I didn't know you were looking out for me there, little fella.

I just need..............more money

Seriously though.....while that's a very good suggestion.......

I've noticed all you do here on this place is scream and bitch and moan about the environment. An environment there is very little you can do about changing. Voting is about it.

Never at all about how someone can actually improve their lives, outside of how they vote.

Everything else.....any individual action....all worthless and meaningless to you.

Instead, just scream about the billionaire while you piss away your life and opportunities.

-is my argument a pipe dream?

You aren't even interested in being able to afford the pipe.

-In your view what is a "living wage" and should it exist?

I don't know what you're talking about. exist in what context?

I didn't insert that term here...I don't rely on it nor use it ever.

And you don't give a ---- what I think about it anyway so why ask?

"The wealthy are just buying themselves bigger and bigger yachts. And with their leftover money, they're building rocket ships to Mars."

So....enjoy another latte?

-LEARN TO CODE

How'd that work out for you?

82

The truth is people like you keep swimming in a pool of self-loathing for accomplishing nothing, while chastising people who you know have accomplished something and have made better choices.

It's a stupid perspective, but one you've been groomed to accept as reality.

"Raise taxes."

Again, an environmental change vs a common sense action item a 25 year old can deploy.

But it's all lost on you, isn't it?

You're broke and it's the billionaire's fault, along with myself apparently....that you're broke.

But keep on with your pipeless dream.

"Meanwhile, millions of Americans are suffering because of Republican policies."

So.....have another Latte. It'll help with the suffering.

-Are unemployment aid, regulated costs and better wages essentially pipe dreams?

Expecting the Federal government to increase the federal minimum wage to a point where You can support a family of 4 is a pipe dream.

And not educating your kids to know how to deal with the environment they are going to face is irresponsible and wrong.

But I wouldn't be surprised if neither you nor clownshack, nor speaksoftly have raised any kids.

Or at least did a good job of it.

So there's a silver lining.

-It's not on a 25-year-old to fix decades of Republican tax cuts for the wealthy.

No, it's on them to make good choices. Not pout day and night about republican tax cuts for the wealthy. To get off their asses and accomplish what they can in the environment they have to face.

I'm not arguing about the environment they face. I'm saying "so the ---- what" and insist they get through it.

but that's a message for kids who aren't lazy, who made good choices and don't expect a free ride like you apparently do.

92

Go back to conspiracy theories, moronrobot

-Has anyone looked at the size of those houses they lived in? The cheap cars with no amenities they drove? A lot of them built their own home and there were no granite counter tops, central A/C or Jacuzzi type tubs.

Not to mention, their employer didn't consider hiring a woman or a minority for their job much less sending that job to Vietnam.

"Thanks for the meanist explanation possible."

FT

-So, to get the job don't be a woman or minority

That was the formula in the 50s, you know...that era of time you and clown are so fond of.

-Do you have any gay people in your family?

awful deflection. You need to square yourself with the fact you're an outcast in your family probably because you are a looney bird conspiracy theorist nobody can stand.

not because you're gay.

There are gay people in my family. They are quite accepted.

I know your persecution complex prevents you from believing that.

-Like the ------ life choice to be born to broke uneducated parents?

how'd that work out for you?

"He's also one of the few people here that I can disagree with and still hold somewhat of a discussion with."

Jesus Christ, none of you can even climb up to a point where we can actually disagree with something.

All I said was I will give proper direction to kids who are trying to make it in this environment. That's it.

That is NOT a defense for a low minimum wage nor expensive rent, etc. It's NOT a condemnation for being in that situation.

All you can deflect with is it's the billionaires and they've brainwashed me somehow.

WTF is wrong you morons? Don't tell me I've fallen victim to propaganda. You 100% know that's not true.

It's not possible any of you even for a second think I've fallen victim for such absurdity.

raising the minimum wage to a "living wage" is 100% politically unrealistic. Is it mean to simply acknowledge that?

Is it irresponsible to give such advice to youngsters who are trying to succeed?

Move forward. Yes, advocate for what's realisitc and can help those who need it.

-She'll tell you all about how the islamists and trans are destroying the country.

That generation in my family has all died.

most of them too early due to lifestyle.

-Also, it should not require two working adults to raise a family, someone needs to be home to actually parent these kids.

You mean make more sacrifices and choices that appear to be falling victim to the billionaire fueled propaganda?

I was chastised for suggesting folks acclimate themselves to the environment they are in.

but seriously.....again, you need to understand economics.

When most parents are working then the incomes go up....the demand goes up.....

It's not like they are going to reduce the cost of housing based on 1 parent staying home. And when most households have both parents working.....that's why the cost is so high.

-The best you can muster is that minimum wage (isn't) meant to be a living wage. #119 | Posted by ClownShack

yep. And nobody is changing it.

There is no political party who's interested in changing it.

If you understood that, then you'd probably shut up about it.

But you clearly must believe there is some glimmer of hope we are going to increase the federal minimum wage to some outrageously higher number.

-Until minimum wage start paying people enough to live on, your suggestion is moot.

Only if I'm giving that suggestion to people making minimum wage.

Which, as I already said, I am not

I have no advice for people who skills are so awful that they're making minimum wage and are above the age of 15

-I love these games.

Damn straight you love them. You have company.

You all get demolished and you resort to calling me a rich kid who hates poor people and gays who thinks Trump convinced me of anything.

-Empathy and wanting a stronger America

I do as well.

But you're not helping the minimum skilled worker like you think you are.

They have to want to NOT be a minimum skilled worker.

But despite that, instead of enforcing higher wages, we've chosen to ... ..

Eliminate income taxes
EITC
Subsidize health care
HUD section 8, projects
Food stamps
Free meals and daycare for kids.

I support those things. I see politicians advocate for those things and strengthen those programs.

Where is the minimum wage argument?

In expensive locales, They've increased the minimum wage which I support as well. But beyond that, where is the movement for it?

-There's nothing on this thread that supports your conclusions.

There are 20 posts above that do support my conclusions.

Your little troupe accused me of all what said.

"Tell us again about how kids are taking too many vacations, that's a new one."

I didn't actually accuse kids of that.

QCP admittedly to holding off on it when he was young, as did I ... .and I said it's good advice and it's just as good advice today as it was for me at the same stage in life.

How the hell do you get so confused by clear words?

"I've never claimed you're rich.

I said you've maintained the same economic status as your parents."

You're a liar and wrong.

-you're telling them to be happy with it.

Also ... ..liar

-Telling people to buy less dolls for the kids for Christmas so we can give billionaires more tax cuts and off shore more jobs.

Also ... ... liar.

-Who cares what their skill level is.

Literally everyone who isn't a ------.

A hell of a lot more people care about skill level than the minimum wage

It's appalling low but nobody cares.

-So you're not telling 25 year olds to live within their means and expect less.

No. I'm telling them to live within their means.

-So all your posts on this thread are irrelevant.

So STFU then.

Don't respond to me.

Again, I'll tell any 24 year old who is a year or so out of school and making $50K or so and paying rent, car, etc and they are trying to manage it all with the high costs to watch what they're doing for a while. They can find $30-$50 a week in expenses they can do without. If they do that, they can eliminate any debt they have much faster or be able to pay cash for a car or down payment on a house sooner and get ahead instead of being behind.

I know what I'm talking about.

You don't even have any advice for that same kid. You're too ducking angry to help anybody. You should steer clear of any advice or counsel. Just stick to your whining on the internet.

Nobody would take you seriously anyway.

$25 an hour with $3,500 a month rent?

Doesn't work.

LOL

I did a lot of that. So did many of my friends.

Most of us are rich now.

We should have listened to you.

Rent luxury apartments, lease Landcruisers, get a boat. Country club, etc.

And why? "DONT BE LESS!!"- clownshart, life coach.

-He just won't ever vote to accomplish anything.

Just keep lying. You lost this 75 posts ago at least.

-Where is your evidence that they're not?

I'm not pointing to anyone specifically and accusing them of that

But this thread has revealed some interesting things about all of you.

The outright ferocious hostility in which some of you have responded to a very benign and simple piece of advice, which is to live within your means tells me how little you all understand money and finance.

You wear that ignorance like it's a badge of honor.

I suppose a part of it has to do with the fact that people who can't live within their means can't accept responsibility for it and therefore it has to be someone else's fault

Christ, I even got one dumb ---- poster up above to declare that living within your means is a lie.

It's a lie? You're so unable to understand the concept of that you're gonna declare a lie?

Stay poor. You don't have the courage to not be poor.

222

Completely correct.

See folks? Rational and common sense.

As I said a dozen times upthread ... ... the environment is much harder today.

But the advice stays the same. Perhaps Better thought needs to be put into educational choices before you agree to take on that much debt. 40 years ago it wasn't an issue, now you have to be more mindful and selective when choosing schools and a path.

"Today's students graduate with 2-3 years worth of debt."

But rent, housing in general, and other expenses of exploded in cost for these kids

-You offer NOTHING.

Then please block me

You're correct, I offer nothing to you. I said several times up thread. My advice isn't for everyone.

230

I graduated in 1993. I owed just shy of $16,000. The income my first full year was just over $30K.

"magically affordable world you seem to come from"

Many of you here would refer to it as a red state shit hole

-To just stop fighting?

With me, yes.

You understand there's 0% chance you can win, right?